Evil fans?

[kingclick]

ARLINGTON, Texas - A 4-year-old boy who lost a foul ball to a not-so-grown-up adult is getting a windfall worthy of a game-winning home run hitter.

A man sitting behind Nick O'Brien at a Texas Rangers (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Texas%20Rangers%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)) baseball game Sunday knocked the boy against the seats as he dived to get a foul ball. Fans started chanting "Give him the ball!" but the man wouldn't give it up.

"I couldn't believe someone would do something like that to a 4-year-old boy," said Nick's mother, Edie O'Brien.

O'Brien said she swatted the man with a cardboard fan and called him a jerk, among other names. "I said, 'You trampled a 4-year-old boy to get this ball,' and he said, 'Oh, well,'" she told ABC's "Good Morning America" on Wednesday, adding that the man seemed proud he got the ball.

Video shows Nick was standing up as the man dived across the boy's seat to grab the ball at Nick's feet. The man's leg strikes the boy, and the boy is jostled a second time as the man stands up with the ball and appears to exchange words with the mother.

Nick wasn't hurt, but fan outrage mushroomed, and even Rangers announcer Tom Grieve voiced his disapproval on TV, calling the man "the biggest jerk in this park." The man and a woman with him left before the game was over.

Meanwhile, the Rangers and the St. Louis Cardinals (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22St.%20Louis%20Cardinals%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)) quickly made sure Nick got souvenirs of his own — two bats and four baseballs, including one signed by Hall of Fame pitcher Nolan Ryan, a former Ranger.

Cardinals outfielder Reggie Sanders came out between innings to give Nick a bat and ball. "In my heart, I thought I should do something," said Sanders. "It's all about the kids."

The man who took the foul ball has not responded publicly to the criticism, but The Dallas Morning News identified him as Matt Starr, a married, 28-year-old landscaper and former youth minister.

Starr is "not the bad guy he's been made out to be," said Rick DuBose, senior pastor of the Sachse Assembly of God Church. "He probably got a little aggressive and did something he regrets. But that's not Matt. He's a good kid, a good young man."

On "Good Morning America," host Charles Gibson gave the O'Briens more souvenirs Wednesday — this time from the New York Mets (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22New%20York%20Mets%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)). The family got tickets to Wednesday night's game against the Cleveland Indians (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Cleveland%20Indians%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw)).

"Wow," Nick responded.

Ok. So the question is this, Evil guy or Evil parents?

[mom2burgess]

As for your question, I don't get what you are going for with the "evil parents" part.

For the rest of it, I don't think the guy was evil. Evil is a word I reserve for much much much worse that what he did. Saying that, i think he probably got too excited and just went for it. While he SHOULD have given the ball to the kid, he didn't. No one really knows why. Poor judgment I suppose, thoughout the whole thing, but I wouldn't call him eveil

[GracieMae]

The guy behaved like a jerk no doubt but IMO the parents are making way too much of this. The child wasn't injured, he ended up with souvenirs and probably had the time of his life once the incident was over.

[MMP]

Not evil, but not too nice either. A grown man knocking over a 4 year old for a stupid baseball!!(MP shakes her head, wondering what the heck he was thinking)

Damn, I hate when I type so fast and add letters to words. Sheesh.

[GracieMae]

I'd like to add, I would have been highly pissed but I doubt I would have gone on Good Morning America with it.

[bRATmom]

yea... I would be on good morning america for the incident....

Only becouse, I WOULDNT HAVE BEAT THE SOB WITH A CARDBOARD FAN!!!!!

I would be the one, inteviewing from my prison cell... cause I smacked the crap outa the guy who dares trample my son.... for a %$^#@^$# baseball.......

seriously, no... the incident would have been over with, I would have ignored him (after my ass chewing) and life would go on.

[kingclick]

http://www.wfaa.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wfaa.com/040613_2200rangfan_am.wmv

Here is a link to the video. Please notice that the little boy wasn't even going after the ball. He had no idea that the ball was there.

And ALSO take not that the Rangers were down 12-0. I wonder if that is why everyone in the stands were already irritated, and they just took it out on this guy.

If the guy hadn't fallen over and just caught the ball over the kids head, no one would think he was a jerk. So he fell, so what.

I think the mom thinks her son should get it JUST BECAUSE her son is a kid. No wonder we have people that think "breeders" are jerks.

[Jory]

Fans get agressive when it comes to catching baseballs or teeshirts or whatever comes flying their way. Had the kid knocked into him and caught the ball, then the kid would have been entitled to keep the ball. Just so happens, it was the other way around. I don't think people would be making such a stink about it if the kid was just another adult fan. Simply because one is a kid does not give them special considerations. There is too much of that these days already, much to the detriment of young adult's reality.

[Shannie-Poo]

It was on video, chances are the new media wouldve got a hold of it. Whether or not the parents went to GMA. Who knows. Maybe the new media got a hold of it FIRST and then found the parents.

The guy was a jerk, sure the kid wasnt hurt but thats not really the point. the man behaved like a 4 year old. I would be deeply embarrassed and ashamed if my husband had done something like this. Common sense is lacking in so many people today.

[emilina]

http://www.wfaa.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wfaa.com/040613_2200rangfan_am.wmv

Here is a link to the video. Please notice that the little boy wasn't even going after the ball. He had no idea that the ball was there.

And ALSO take not that the Rangers were down 12-0. I wonder if that is why everyone in the stands were already irritated, and they just took it out on this guy.

If the guy hadn't fallen over and just caught the ball over the kids head, no one would think he was a jerk. So he fell, so what.

I think the mom thinks her son should get it JUST BECAUSE her son is a kid. No wonder we have people that think "breeders" are jerks.

I agree with you on this.

[Jory]

http://www.wfaa.com/cgi-bin/bi/video/wmPlayer.pl?title=www.wfaa.com/040613_2200rangfan_am.wmv

Here is a link to the video. Please notice that the little boy wasn't even going after the ball. He had no idea that the ball was there.

And ALSO take not that the Rangers were down 12-0. I wonder if that is why everyone in the stands were already irritated, and they just took it out on this guy.

If the guy hadn't fallen over and just caught the ball over the kids head, no one would think he was a jerk. So he fell, so what.

I think the mom thinks her son should get it JUST BECAUSE her son is a kid. No wonder we have people that think "breeders" are jerks.

My POS computer won't let me download videos, but sounds to me like the breeders (oops, I mean parents) were using their kid as a way to get the ball themselves.

[kingclick]

Actually the video shows the mom smacking the guy with her fan. The funny thing is...it just looks like she is hitting him because he fell into her space. Not that he was taking the ball away from anyone.

[mle30]

It's a total mountain-made-of-a-molehill situation, and the fact that such a non-incident was made into a "how cruel not to BOW DOWN to THIS CHILD" situation exemplifies the breederistic, kid-worship that seems prevelent in the nation - and can feel suffocating.

In the long run, we're doing a MAJOR disservice to ourselves and others if we teach our kids that nothing bad, or less than the best, is allowed to happen to them. Adult life is full of a thousand jabs a day, just by the act of interacting with others. I can't imagine this kid growing up and being able to take the knocks of starting out in the mail room, or having his employers not care about him personally, or being surrounded by others who think *they're* as entitled and special as he does.

Now, it seems such lessons - learning that you may be loved, but you're not the center of the world - are tantamount to abuse. Sheesh! Where's the perspective here?

[mle30]

entitlement? Complete loss of perspective? Yes, yes, yes!

[Echo2]

MLE30 -I agree with you 100%. I saw it replaid on TV about five times this morning and that child was NOT knocked over, he was slightkly moved to one side and didn't even loose his footing. The kid didn't even know the ball was coming towards him, he was busy eating something. The mother was rude and asaulted the man with a fan or paper of some kind. The mother should be fined and thrown out of the ball park for asaulting anopther spectator.

It is parents like this that make others really dislike "breeders". The idea that their darling little child is above averybody else and should be treated extra special because they are a kid.

[mle30]

:smooch:

[Shannie-Poo]

I swear to God if anyone ever referred to me as a BREEDER, I would smack the shit out of them. I really hate that word..

[IdahoMom]

I haven't seen the video, but my perspective is why is a flippin' baseball more important than common courtesy? This happened to me at a baseball game once. I was about 8 months pregnant, I saw the ball coming and sat down and tried to get out of the way and people were still diving all over the place like a god d*mn million dollars was raining down on us. These were not only strangers, who may have been clueless that I was pregnant (although I was 8 months, but looked like I was carrying a toddler), but these were also people who I came to the game with and knew I was pregnant.

Wasn't even a homerun ball, just a foul ball by some guy who probably isn't even in the majors any longer. It's just a baseball, they can be bought pretty cheap at your local retail store. So maybe the kid wasn't KNOCKED down, but even so . . . I don't get how it seems to be ok for manners to be overlooked just because a little baseball is coming your way. :rolleyes2

[DiznieB]

I don't think evil but just a big jerk. I would have said A LOT of words to that guy had it been my kid. I'm glad the boy made out well!! Reggie Sanders, Nolan Ryan - lucky kid. I'm glad the media has made it a big deal. Hope it embarasses the jerk.

[DiznieB]

I also wanted to add...

years ago when Big Mac came to town, he was signing autographs. I was there with my little nephew who is a little league player. We waited a long time before he came out. When Big Mac came out, it was horrible! People were jumping over seats and knocking over kids. I was SO HAPPY that Big Mac told the crowd that he refused to sign ANY autographs to adults or those who knock over others. My nephew ended up getting his autograph.

People are rude. They forget that it's not about a ball, a bat or an autograph. It's about the experience. Especially for the kids!!

[Jory]

I swear to God if anyone ever referred to me as a BREEDER, I would smack the shit out of them. I really hate that word..


I only used it because Kinglozer started it. Heh, I am a breeder I guess since I have bred.

[Jory]

People are rude. They forget that it's not about a ball, a bat or an autograph. It's about the experience. Especially for the kids!!
__________________

It is about the experience for everyone, why especially for the kids? As was said before, the kid wasn't even aware of what was happening in the game at that point. I could see the experience being especially for kids if it were some place like a kiddie park, but since when did baseball or any professional sport become especially for kids?

[Echo2]

I see it this way....The guy who pushed the kid was obnoxious and he was rude. I do NOT condone what he did. But understand, when those of us who don't worship children call kids rude and obnoxious, we are told "adults act that way too" as if that is an excuse for a child to be a brat. (In fact, a couple people in another string just recently used that excuse). So if the child worshipers are going to condemn this guy, then they better find another excuse for their brats' behavior.

But the big question is....
Why would any mother in her right mind take a four year old to a live professional baseball game. I don't think a four year old child has any business at a sporting event. Their attention span is not long enough to stay interested for two to three hours, they are too young to understand the game and as we have seen, they are not physically large enough to deal with the crouds and wigged out fans. A mother that uses such bad judgement should not be rewarded with noteriety and gifts.

[Shannonigans]

In a lot of ways I agree with you Echo. I know a lot of parents say that they want their kids to experience live games, concerts, outdoor events like this and I think that's wonderful but a crowded stadium can hold lots of dangers for really little ones.

Was the guy obnoxious for keeping the ball? Nope. Not at all. I would have apologized but would not have given the ball up.

I also think kids in general are treated way too permissively. It gets rather old sometimes to hear "it's all for the kids" or "this isn't for adults, it's for the kids"

Hey it's OK for adults to like things, too!

:D

Life doesn't revolve around the children, rather it revolves around all people. Little ones, middle ones and older ones. All people are equally important.

[Shannonigans]

People are rude. They forget that it's not about a ball, a bat or an autograph. It's about the experience. Especially for the kids!!

See this is sort of what I was alluding to. I remember when Beanie Babies were EXTREMELY popular. I had hundreds of them. Yes I was strange. LOL I remember standing in line for specific ones for hours. I had parents come up to me and scream that they should be able to get in front of line because "they had children" or "my little girl wants one and she's a child so she should be first"

Whatever. I knew that it was really the MOTHERS who wanted the beanies, not the kids

;)

But seriously. Why should a children get to go first or get special treatment just because they're kids? You know?

[April]

The whole thing is ridiculous. The guy was a total ass. He didn't just reach for a ball headed in his direction, he DOVE into the seats in front of him with total disregard for the people in front of him, kids or adults.

From what I understood (I saw this article on another website through a friend's Live Journal), it wasn't the mother demanding that he give the kid the ball, it was the surrounding crowd. Maybe they thought the kid was going for the ball. I think the mom's reaction was normal. If some idiot dove into our seats and landed on my child, I'd beat him with more than a cardboard fan. I'd ask security to throw his ass out and he can take the damn ball with him for all I care.

Who cares? It all worked out. The guy has been humiliated all over the country, the kid made out like a bandit, mom & dad got a free trip to NY. It's done.

Incidently, I took my 20 month old and my 11 yr old to a MiLB game last weekend. We were there with my ex-husband, his wife, and their 2 yr old son. Both kids were very well behaved, especially considering it was hot out and we were there for 3 hours. Sunday is Family Day and almost every activity between innings is aimed at kids and there are a few for adults. I was always under the impression that sporting events were open to people of all ages.

And by the way, I prefer the term "parent". Dogs and rabbits breed. I procreate.

[mle30]

I still think that this is all:

1. A mountain out of a molehill. I mean, let's have a red alert! FAN DIVES FOR FOUL BALL! I mean, that's gotta be UNHEARD OF!! What next - drunk fans with their shirts off? Fans chewing tobacco, or smelling of bad B.O? Obnoxious fans shouting obsenities dressed and painted up in homage to their team?

NEWSFLASH: fans DO cr@p like this. You'd think we were at the opera with the way people are carrying on. Uhh... gee... people diving for a foul ball... isn't that like one of the GIVENS of the game? Isn't that heard of ALL THE TIME, like when cheerleaders throw out T-shirts at college basketball games? So someone got into your personal space. Lighten up. You'd think this kid was the Boy in the Bubble with how it went on.

2. I feel badly for this guy who became public enemy No. 1, IMO, because everyone loves to have a villain. I think court defendants get more privacy than this guy, who had his name, age, and current and former occupation put in the national news... for what? For at the most, being RUDE? War, terrorist threats, economic worries, an election year, and THIS warrants national attention? How shameful.

3. Such causes as enjoyment for all, courteousness, etc, should not be 'especially for kids'. They should apply equally to all, or else it's a little hypocritical. You'd think there was no middle ground between shielding a child from every possible slight or leaving them out on the streets. You'd also think that there was real persecution of parents and families with the reactivity to the term 'breeder'. Someone posted they'd 'beat someone up' if they were called a breeder? I know there are racial epithets that cannot be tolerated, but those words represent centuries of real violence and persecution. Not only does 'breeder' refer to a behavior, and not a class, but it's still a WORD. Not even in cases of actual racist hate is violence okay in response to words.

Also, parents and kids are far from persecuted against. If anything, the culture of 'especially for the kids', and 'I would beat up anyone who dived into my child's space' is a tyranny of the many over the few. And it's not those who love kids vs. those who hate them. More accurately, it's an oppressive "how *COULD* you", "shame on you" attitude towards those whose actions are not practically worshipful of said child's existence.

The perspective seems totally out of line to me. You'd think this guy was trying to kidnap the kid, or lure him into a sweatshop, instead of behaving like he was at an MLB game (instead of a polo match).

And if you ask me (though I'll give my opinion anyway :) this was a whole icky mob mentality deal with the crowd chanting, and it becoming something ANNOUNCED in the stadium. All we need is for the boy to be blond-haired and blue-eyed, and the big bad man to be dark with ethnic features - it'd look like one of the Nazi propaganda posters of the early thirties.

[Shannie-Poo]

Why would any mother in her right mind take a four year old to a live professional baseball game. I don't think a four year old child has any business at a sporting event.

Oh gosh yes.....lets leave all little children away from the public eye because of unruly fans. God forbid that a parent try to make a day of it with their child who may or may not love sports but loves the excitement of the game, and the roar of the crowd, the day of fresh air, getting out of the house feeling.. For all you know she couldve been sitting in the "family friendly" area that a lot of ball parks offer.

In fact lets ban children from all things, the mall, kmart, grocery store. For the sake of all those adults that are annoyed by them and dont believe that belong there. For they may not behave to "adult standards"

[mle30]

Sheesh, Shannon, it's not like there's such thing as a MIDDLE GROUND, where kids sometimes get bumped or bustled or pushed or not always what they want when they want it (or what their parents would wish for them), because THE ENTIRE WORLD doesn't spend all their attention on making sure nothing touches your child.

I feel sorry for this kid's kindergarten teacher. What's gonna happen when more than one kid wants to play with blocks? What's gonna happen when kids tussle over a swing. What's gonna happen ten years from now, when this kid tries out for the school play or baseball team and doesn't get the spot he feels he deserves? What happens when the world doesn't BEND TO HIM the way it seems it should (and he's been taught that it should).

[sigh]

[April]

I feel sorry for this kid's kindergarten teacher. What's gonna happen when more than one kid wants to play with blocks? What's gonna happen when kids tussle over a swing. What's gonna happen ten years from now, when this kid tries out for the school play or baseball team and doesn't get the spot he feels he deserves? What happens when the world doesn't BEND TO HIM the way it seems it should (and he's been taught that it should).

[sigh]


I think that arguing with another child over blocks is a bit different than being pounced on by a 200 lb grown man.

It's not like the kid demanded the ball and threw a fit for it. He was just minding his own business, enjoying a baseball game with his parents. I'm sorry, I don't see how the kid is at fault for any of this and why you feel the need to criticize him. Or is it just the simple fact that he exists that gets under your skin so much?

[mle30]

From what I saw of the "raw footage" this kid was minding his own business, and got his personal space thwarted a bit. Ummm.... no.... his existence doesn't bother me. I just don't get up in arms over non-issues like his "assault"

I DO get up in arms over a total loss of perspective, though. No matter the ages, races, heritage or otherwise of the participants.

[Echo2]

I think what bothers everone is that after watching the film of it happening, it is obvious that the child really wasn't even aware that anything was giong on. He did not get pounced. He did not scrapple for the ball, in fact, he wasn't even looking at the ball. He was off in his own little four year old world staring off into space when he happened to get bumped by a obnoxious fan diving for the ball. The mother got pushed more than the kid did. But the whole stadium and all the child worshipers are up in arms about how poorly hthis kid was treated. The kid was pretty oblivious, it was the adults that made a big thing of it.

The reality is that the adult fan was a jerk. The kid didn't even know what was going on, the mother was pushed and rightfully swatted the jerk with her fan, the announcer didn't relate the truth to the croud and the croud thought they were sticking up for a kid who had been trampled and shoved aside by a bully.

[mle30]

... but it's interesting how my concern with regards to the over-coddling going on, and it's possible repercussions elsewhere, makes it possible that "the simple fact he exists [may get] under my skin."

Again, middle ground anyone? Sense of perspective?

And what about in 10 years, if the kid tries out for a play and doesn't get the part he feels he deserves, or just gets his feelings hurt. Where do we stop with this 'bubble wrapping the world' mentality?

[Echo2]

mle30- The child coddling thing is an off shot of political correctness. What the people with these ideas haven't gotten yet is that life is NOT fair, life is NOT PC, life is NOT easy. It is sad that because of this coddling we now have a whole group of younger adults that have been brought up to believe they are more important than anyone else and they have bought into the whole PC thing.

We could never learn to be brave and patient if there were only joy in the world.... Helen Keller

[IdahoMom]

Sheesh, Shannon, it's not like there's such thing as a MIDDLE GROUND, where kids sometimes get bumped or bustled or pushed or not always what they want when they want it (or what their parents would wish for them), because THE ENTIRE WORLD doesn't spend all their attention on making sure nothing touches your child.

I feel sorry for this kid's kindergarten teacher. What's gonna happen when more than one kid wants to play with blocks? What's gonna happen when kids tussle over a swing. What's gonna happen ten years from now, when this kid tries out for the school play or baseball team and doesn't get the spot he feels he deserves? What happens when the world doesn't BEND TO HIM the way it seems it should (and he's been taught that it should).

[sigh]

Again, middle ground anyone? Sense of perspective?

And what about in 10 years, if the kid tries out for a play and doesn't get the part he feels he deserves, or just gets his feelings hurt. Where do we stop with this 'bubble wrapping the world' mentality?

Since you are talking about a middle ground and getting a sense of perspective . . .

I think you are making a big implication here that b/c of this ONE incident, this child is being raised and taught that he is deserving and the world should bend to his whims. Yes, this has been blown out of proportion and perhaps after his parents have a chance to stop and take a breath and reconsider the whole event, they will realize that they TOO blew it out of proportion, or allowed it to continue. Perhaps these are parents who do not usually give in to their childs every whim (there are those of us out there) and are actually raising a nice respectful young child. Look for some middle ground here as well.

[April]

I think you are making a big implication here that b/c of this ONE incident, this child is being raised and taught that he is deserving and the world should bend to his whims. Yes, this has been blown out of proportion and perhaps after his parents have a chance to stop and take a breath and reconsider the whole event, they will realize that they TOO blew it out of proportion, or allowed it to continue. Perhaps these are parents who do not usually give in to their childs every whim (there are those of us out there) and are actually raising a nice respectful young child. Look for some middle ground here as well.


Exactly! You're judging this kid and implying that he's going to be a spoiled brat for the rest of his life because of this 30-second video. Like I said before, the child did NOTHING but yet you have labeled him as whiny, spoiled, and self-indulgent.

This is yet another example of adults behaving worse than children.

[GracieMae]

I was under the impression the child involved wasn't doing anything wrong. Why the comments like "the little darling" and such? :confused:

Edited to clerify.

[mle30]

I'm not judging the kid to be saint or sinner. Neither, really. But I judge the public in general for the outcry this garnered - this snowballing with everyone jumping on the "evil man who hurt child" bandwagon - from the crowd to the MLB announcer - without stopping to ask themselves what the actual context of the situation is.

I don't know about this particular kid, or these particular parents outside of what was caught on video, and the reactions made public. But my concern about the consequences at large for kids and parents alike doesn't need to be about THEM. History has already provided me with instances like hockey dads who beat their kids' coach, parents who sue to get their child on the varsity cheerleading team, etc.

[GracieMae]

Again, this woman doesn't speak for all parents.

I have 6 children but I am no breeder. My children receive discipline when needed and they do not get their own way. My older "children" are all successful and well adjusted.

I have a 4 year old. Had any adult almost bowled her over I would most definitly told them to watch where they were going. 4 year olds are much smaller than most adults.

Just because that woman over reacted does not automatically make her a "breeder"!

[mle30]

Kids who bully or perform school shootings don't speak for all kids, either. The parents who beat up their kids' coaches don't speak for all parents. Most times, one isolated act perpetrated by someone doesn't speak to the whole of who they are. Yet, addressing each social ill, as it happens, is necessary to 1. address if there is a problem (and how big could that problem be; what are the possible social repercussions), and 2. try to think of possible ways to improve the situation.

Someone shoplifts a candy bar. They stole, and they can rightfully be called a thief for it. Does it mean that they're evil? That a "thief" is all they are, or all they ever have been and ever will be? No. You say that THAT act was wrong, you address it, and you address the underlying causes so that it doesn't happen again.

In a perfect world, the child wouldn't have been bumped. It in NO WAY makes the adult evil. It in no way makes any kind of hitting okay (understandable, but not okay). Just like in a perfect world, the mom woudn't have hit the guy, nor would they have taken a role in this mushrooming. Again, it doesn't make them evil. It makes them like the ball-catcher. He had a rude moment, and they had a breeder moment.

[Echo2]

Hate to tell you this Gracie but if you have six kids you ARE a breeder. Do you have any concept of population control? Birth control? Do you know that our earths resources are deminishing and that bringing litters of children into this world is a hardship on the entire world population? Do you know how many starving and unwanted children their are? Shame on you!

[GracieMae]

And what exactally should breeders refer to child free people who upset them as?

[GracieMae]

Hate to tell you this Gracie but if you have six kids you ARE a breeder. Do you have any concept of population control? Birth control? Do you know that our earths resources are deminishing and that bringing litters of children into this world is a hardship on the entire world population? Do you know how many starving and unwanted children their are? Shame on you!

Shame on me???? Oh no you didn't :mad:

I guess my late son helps to make up for my personal population explosion :rolleyes:

[Echo2]

Gracie, I appologise. I should not have attacked you openly for the number of kids you have. I believe what I said, but it was pretty rude of me to say it the way I did. I am truly sorry. :-(

[GracieMae]

Echo, I accept your apology but I will say I really don't care if you feel I'm a breeder.

I am not on public assistance, my children are well cared for and I can handle having a large family.

Yes, I got momentarily mad at your comment but I have heard such comments for years.

[Echo2]

My comment stems from a very strong ecological prospective. It should not have been made as a personal assault. And in this great country, at least for the time being, we are still entitled to have as many children as we want.

I can afford to have many children too but I chose not to. Though I have to admit my choice had nothing to do with altruistic ideals. I just hated being preggers and being a mom. LOL.

As long as you are doing a good job then I say more power to you. We need more parents that are dedicated. Again, I am sorry.

[mle30]

And what exactally should breeders refer to child free people who upset them as?


"Just Jealous", "Child Hater", "Bitter", "Barren", "Lonely and Unloved", "Poor, Pitiful Thing".

But I think I've heard 'jealous' the most.

[mle30]

Why am I incapable of not having this thoughts all at once??? Why must I be reposting queen??? My brain must really be that small.

You don't have to be a parent to be a breeder, y'know. It's a behavior, not a creed or color or nationality.

[GracieMae]

"Just Jealous", "Child Hater", "Bitter", "Barren", "Lonely and Unloved", "Poor, Pitiful Thing".

But I think I've heard 'jealous' the most.

It's unfortunate that you have been called those things :sad: Not all "breeders" feel that way. While I find the term breeder offensive it applies to a certain type of parent. One which I am not. I guess I prefer the term "motherly" :D

[emilina]

"Breeder" seems to me to indicate a person who is actually having kids for certain traits.... you know, like dogs for certain breeds. I think the term is silly at best and at worst, offensive.

[mle30]

I understand what you mean, but I disagree. On the other side of the coin, I object strongly to the idea that everyone who has kids are 'parents'. To me, parenting implies a kind of responsible undertaking that is far from the act of giving birth, or even just "being there" while the child grows up.

I think parenting is also a behavior. It's a kind of nurturing that isnt' necessarily induced by lactating, or descending testicles. I don't think that such nurturing or guiding is even limited only towards children.

[DiznieB]

From the dictionary:

breed ( P ) Pronunciation Key (brd)
v. bred, (brd) breed·ing, breeds

1. To produce (offspring); give birth to or hatch.


Since I produce offspring and give birth to - I supose I AM a breeder. I can be proud of that.

What I do find offensive is the constant need for "child free" members to refer to parents as breeders in a negative way. I find it ironic how you want to be so sensitive by a parent simply ASKING "so, are you going to have any kids" and yet you call us breeders. So. For as long as I am referred to as a "breeder" simply by my CHOICE to have children, I am going to refer to the child-free as lonely jealous child haters. Sound fair? No. It isn't. I made a choice to have children and that should be respected. I am a parent. A mother. You (the child free) made a choice to remain child free. I can respect that and I admire that decision.

Let's show some MUTUAL respect and consideration for each other's feelings here and stop using negative slang to label a person.

[April]

If it weren't for "breeders", none of you would be here.

So STFU

I am so sick of this crap. Some guy acts like a total idiot and knocks over a PERSON (yes, children ARE people) and is publicly humiliated for it. And because said person was a child, and because people have spoken out about this oaf's behavior, we're suddenly "breeders" and we're "bubble wrapping" the world.
I'd feel the same way if this idiot knocked over an elderly person or a woman or an adult male that was half his size.

Get it through your goddamned head and stop making every debate here a "child-free/breeder" issue.

[April]

And just a little addendum to my previous post....


People like you annoy me more than ANYONE'S child EVER could.

[mle30]

I'm sorry that my opinions are offensive. I have taken pains to define what my terms meant/didn't mean. I understand said connotations - both for breeder and parent, may not be listed in the dictionary. To that, I say I made no reference to the dictionary term, but defined my meaning quite clearly. I'm sure there was a time when "fishy" didn't mean 'suspicious', or when 'awesome' didn't refer to a REALLY cool car.

Am I annoying? Do you not like me? Okay.

This was a non-issue - no harm, no foul (no pun intended). And if the non-issue had involved an elderly person or disabled person, it would have been equally a non-issue. Rude? Oafish? I agree - but not worth this hostility. I'm not saying that these parents are breeders for acting the way they acted - and I DO believe making SUCH a deal is acting badly, and setting a 'the whole world revolves around this child' mentality, which I think is damaging long-term.

But I DO think it is a bad example to say that anything that does not BOW DOWN to a child is equivalent to a child hater who SHOULD be slapped, or hit, or humiliated, or worse. That's ALL I've said, and yet you'd think I was running ZPG banners for the reaciton.

Have I told anyone here NOT to TTC? Have I called ANYONE here breeders for having children? Have I trolled the parenting board here? And if I'm making EVERY post about children/childfree, where does my post about my cat come in? Or my opinion of Regan? Or religion?

Strange that my opinion of not HATING this guy for being an oaf, and not agreeing that it was right for the mom to hit the guy (understandable, I said, but not right), that this makes ME the hater. It's like the Vietnam protesters, who expressed their love for America by trying to point out where their beloved country was going wrong. And being told "my country, right or wrong" and "if you don't love America, then get out!"

Is that where we're going? Our cuture, our parents, our young people, right or wrong? Love them or get out?

As for the derision put my way, I don't hold any anger. I repect your opinions, and I know that the world isn't expected to make a place for me. As for the names, again, it's all right. I have distant cousins who died for being Jews, and great-Uncles who died for the right for others to call them Kikes. Why would non-violent opinions put forth to describe an action or behavior bother me?

Unfortunately, the hostility I perceive seems to prove my theory of hypersensitivity, lack of middle ground, and loss of perspective true.

Thank you for reading - mle30

[DiznieB]

Let's make a few things clear.

It's not your OPINIONS or CHILD FREE CHOICE that is offensive. I have said it before, I have said it a million times, that I find the decision of remaining child free to be admirable. I have also said, a million times, that I respect those who make the choice to remain child free.

What I do find offensive is that PARENTS are constantly being referred to as breeders. I find THAT WORD to be offensive.

I feel that if I can respect YOUR (general child free population) decision to remain child free - then respect MY decision to have children.

The fact is, and I will direct this to MLE and Echo, that you have come to this message board with your defenses up. I have never notice one member here attack either of you for your decision to remain child free. No one has insulted the two of you the way we have been insulted with the negative slang, breeder. I have yet to see ANYONE here call either of you a child hater or imply that you must be lonely or jealous. So show us "breeders" some mutual respect and stop referring to us as BREEDERS.

I also want to add that you (the general child free population) are not the only group of people to have your life's decision attacked and questioned. You are also not the only group of people to find misbehaved wal-mart sprogs annoying. You are not the only group of people who dislike certain behaviors that are found in children and their parents. Believe me. I hate going to Wal-Mart during the day just as much as you do.

I have a little more patience for children because they are just that, children. Their brains ARE in fact not completely developed. So yes, I do believe a little more consideration should be shown towards children. Especially since these children will grow up to be adults who will end up wiping your butt in the old folks home. I hope you have some respect for them then.

Frankly. I despise ADULTS more so then children. Whether a breeder or not has not weight on my dislike for certain adults. I just don't care for rude, arrogant, selfish, ignorant, un-mannerly, badly behaved ANYTHING. Adult. Child. Breeder. Child Free.

AND before I end with my post - regarding the subject at hand - what the jack ass did to the CHILD was rude. Even if it was an old lady or a middle aged adult, you show common courtesy to all. Yet - I feel that since it was a child - you (the general child free) want to jump all over it and prove your point that the world revolves around a child. Give me break. I don't care WHO it was - the jack ass was in the wrong and should have apologized and given the ball to the person he JUMPED in front of and knocked down.

Stepping off my soap box now.

[Mabel]

My opinion, worth as much as maybe 2 cents, if that. LOL.


We have made a huge step in the message board world to take two separate life styles and try to co-habitate (child free vs. parent). I think it can be a success. I think it's GREAT to have different people, and different perspective. BUT! Somehow it's turning into an us vs. them situation whenever a CHILD is brought into a debate. As though we have to immediately draw that line and stand on our side, kwim?
It doesn't have to be that way. We can have adult discussions all together, without it turning into a childfree vs. parent debate.
I think we all need to agree on one thing. Let's stop with the insulting titles towards our lifestyles. For the child free, as far as *I* know - here at TCC no one HAS labeled you as jealous, child haters, bitter, or any of those other things. Nor should we. In turn, let's not refer to the parents as "breeders" or any of the other offensive titles that could be used. Show respect to each other, and become one community, full of different personalities, life styles, and opinions. Respect each other, and show that respect in your words!

We have the oppurtunity to take something ugly (the hatred and fighting between the two lifestyles) and create something worthwhile and constructive. Let's not blow it.

[mle30]

but I'm not calling everyone breeders. I'm saying that there was an overreaction. Did I say these were bad parents? That they shouldn't have kids? NO. In fact, I went out of my way to say that this ONE ACT, OUT OF CONTEXT, was IMO poor. I still don't understand what's wrong with that.

Why don't I say that that one act on the part of the parents was BOORISH, okay? Not that THEY"RE BOORS, but that they acted BOORISH for the duration, and that such boorishness IMO snowballed into a practical amber alert because there was a total overreaction due to a child being involved. Remember, really, *nothing happened to this child*.

Let's say I went to my local school board or some such, and made a cause of how since I put no children into the school system, I feel I shouldn't have to contribute taxes to said system. I'll even say right now that I don't happen to believe in this, but I'll put it out there for the sake of the hypothetical.

That opinion could easily, understandably, and perhaps rightfully be described as a bitter opinion. Does it mean you think all people who choose to be childfree are bitter? No. Does it mean you think bitter and awful is all I am? Maybe. Though, as an intelligent, thoughtful poster (and person), I would hope that you would try to reach out to me through communication and understanding, and if nothing else, reach a civil impasse. The alternative - writing such thoughts off as hateful, awful, terrible, incorrigable... basically a horrid lost cause, a one-dimensional being... it may be cathartic, but in the long run, not helpful.

By judging ONE ACT as poor, I am not judging a whole choice, or class, or group, as poor.

Thank you again for your time. I hope this will be taken as the explanation and furtherence of understanding that I intend. It is not meant as a justification of offense, or to be offensive itself.

[Jory]

Kinglozer started the whole breeder thing on this thread. He is the instigator! :smileyhap

Aside from the hang up on one little word that I kind of understand, I agree with most of what mle has said. Especially the over coddling of children these days which I see plenty of working in a public school system.

mle wrote Where do we stop with this 'bubble wrapping the world' mentality?

and I think that was the whole point of this debate. The parents have done a fine job allowing the media to exploit their child (reminds me a bit like pimping). Does a child really need all that attention over an accident? Does a child, who would otherwise have forgotten the whole thing, need to be MADE a victim when he wasn't one to begin with? I think it is kind of sick and harmful to the child.

[mle30]

For the record, the only thing I said was 'breeder moment' which to me could be 'boorish moment' 'oafish moment'. If I called an action 'cheap', would it mean I was insulting all Jews?

What about... let's say... people who do drugs willingly while they're pregnant? Do they deserve the same respect as good parents?

Since the word is so incredibly volatile, I am sorry for bringing it up in the first place. I, like Mabel, don't want to blow anything (umm.... that sounds less G rated than I meant it to be)

I hope we can still have honest, thought-provoking discussion while stepping away from the precipice.

[Shannie-Poo]

I hate the word Breeder...

If your child was born out of wedlock, I do not call him a bastard,

If you are of another race, I do not call you any slang names.

If you are homeless, I do not call you a bum,.

Just because you do not "BREED" and often say mean things about children, I dont call you an ass.

If I am a parent, please dont call me a breeder.

[mle30]

If I don't spend money, you can call me cheap.

If I had my kids taken by DSS, you can call me an unfit parent

If I was homeless, you could call me pitiful.

None of these things would mean that anyone doing/saying such things are bad people. And again, I called no one the *B word*. I have times I act ethnically "jewish". Doesn't mean I'm using the K-word, or saying Jews are bad.

Who have I called *THAT WORD* because they had children? When did I say all parents were anything (as a group/class, etc).

Point taken. I hope mine is, too.

[Torlain]

Ok, back on topic....If someone dove for a foul ball and jostled, bumped, hurt or did anything to my daughter, ya know what? He'd be lucky if I only talked to him, it is my duty to protect my children. My children are not the world, but they are MY world. I think the main issue here is this persons callous behavior, children are hurt easier, so frankly, whether you like it or not, you should be aware of your surroundings and act accordingly...... This guy used very poor judgement, over a baseball, while he should not be villifed, maybe this will open peoples eyes to what could have happened in this situation...


Probably doesn't make much sense, as I'm tired and working with one hand here.....but, I tried..

[Mabel]

Doesn't matter if it's a child or another adult - the guy was wrong. A person's safety is above the importance of a baseball, bottom line.

[Humdinger]

Yeppers Mabs. I would be shit flamming mad if that was me in place of a CHILD, and I used to be a Marine. I would have whooped his ass if he would have done that to me. LMAO

[mle30]

It's off-topic, but I've had my ass whooped by people who've been the closest to me. It heals.

No amount of jostling is worthy of one, though. One man's oafish accident does not make righteous whoop-assing okay.

Still think the overreaction is outta line. Each person is someone's world; someone's child. In any event, how's compounding a wrong with a wrong okay? It's small scale vigilantism, and I wouldn't want it done for me. I mean, I understand the inclination and emotionalism involved, but thought out... it's not the right thing. It's matching wrong for wrong, and I'd want to take a higher road.

[kingclick]

Well. Let me ask you this,
Last night Metallica came to town. I was lucky and got two tickets for the Pit!! You know where the participants slam against each other and all crush against each other trying to get to the stage. Guess who I am taking? My four year old son!! That way when he gets crushed by some other Metallica fan, I can get a butt load of free stuff from the band!!!

[GracieMae]

I wanna see Metallica!!!!!!!

My son saw them last summer. He said they preformed for almost 3 hours and they were awsome. Please take me KL :D

[mle30]

I'll be looking for him and his 4yo on Good Morning America. Hold out for a cruise around the world!

[April]

KL, you make the most asinine comparisons and then have the nerve to overanalyze the phrase "apples and oranges".

Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can see that a baseball game and a Metallica concert are totally different environments.

[IdahoMom]

KL, you make the most asinine comparisons and then have the nerve to overanalyze the phrase "apples and oranges".

Anyone with an inkling of intelligence can see that a baseball game and a Metallica concert are totally different environments.

Oh no, they're practically identical. Haven't you heard the phrase, "as American as apple pie and Metallica"???

:bath:

[kingclick]

The comparison is that they are both potentially dangerous situations because of the spectators. I'm sorry you can't see that comparison.

Diving and scrambling for baseballs has been going on forever.

[GracieMae]

Come on KL. You expect to see children at baseball games. You don't exoect to see them at Metallica concerts. My son was 17 when he went and it was his first concert by the way.

It isn't a realistic comparison.

[kingclick]

Yes. I expect to see kids at baseball games, but the parents take the risk that some fan scrambling for a ball will bump or squish your kid. It's PART OF THE GAME! You know the risks coming into the ballpark therefore you are accepting that this may happen. If you still want to see the game but don't want that to happen purchase a location that has a low chance of a foul or homerun ball. The world does NOT revolve around my son, therefore the world doesn't have to walk on eggshells just because he is there.

Just to be clear. My son is 8 and not four. I was being sarcastic in that post to prove a point.

Knowingly bringing your child into a semi-dangerous situation negates your right to complain when he is injured.

[GracieMae]

Would that mother take her 4 year old son to a Metallica concert? That is something we don't know.

I might take my 4 year old to a baseball game but definitly not to a Metallica concert.

There is no comparrison IMO.

[kingclick]

The comparison is that they BOTH have potentially dangerous fans. That is the comparison. And THAT is what we are talking about. And in BOTH situations the fans are doing what is within expectations.

[Jory]

Yes. I expect to see kids at baseball games, but the parents take the risk that some fan scrambling for a ball will bump or squish your kid. It's PART OF THE GAME! You know the risks coming into the ballpark therefore you are accepting that this may happen. If you still want to see the game but don't want that to happen purchase a location that has a low chance of a foul or homerun ball. The world does NOT revolve around my son, therefore the world doesn't have to walk on eggshells just because he is there.

Just to be clear. My son is 8 and not four. I was being sarcastic in that post to prove a point.

Knowingly bringing your child into a semi-dangerous situation negates your right to complain when he is injured.


Yup, said kid could have been hit by the ball and killed. Things like that have happened. I think there was a case a couple of years ago where a girl was struck and killed with a hockey puck at a game.

[Echo2]

I for one would never consider taking a four year old to a professional sporting event. A four year old isn't even hardly a child yet. He is barely out of being a toddler. It is poor parenting and shows poor judgement. Yes baseball can be a family event. But not babies and toddlers at a professional game. Common sense says take them to A little league game or a high school game where the fans aren't drinking, getting roudy and diving for balls. At four years old he wont even know the difference.

Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children. :whipit:

[GracieMae]

Echo, just because you feel taking a 4 year old to a baseball game constitutes bad parenting doesn't make it so.

[Slabobbin]

I for one would never consider taking a four year old to a professional sporting event. A four year old isn't even hardly a child yet. He is barely out of being a toddler. It is poor parenting and shows poor judgement. Yes baseball can be a family event. But not babies and toddlers at a professional game. Common sense says take them to A little league game or a high school game where the fans aren't drinking, getting roudy and diving for balls. At four years old he wont even know the difference.

Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children. :whipit:

Do you realize how offensive that is? So YOU wouldn't take YOUR four year old to a ball game. I can respect that. I would never dream of telling you that you should. I would never insult you for not doing so. So why can't you have the same respect for others? If someone wants to take their child to a game what business is it of yours? Who is it hurting? Why throw around the terms "poor parenting" and "poor judgement" and make comments like "Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children"? Save those comments for things that really ARE poor parenting.

[GracieMae]

Do you realize how offensive that is? So YOU wouldn't take YOUR four year old to a ball game. I can respect that. I would never dream of telling you that you should. I would never insult you for not doing so. So why can't you have the same respect for others? If someone wants to take their child to a game what business is it of yours? Who is it hurting? Why throw around the terms "poor parenting" and "poor judgement" and make comments like "Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children"? Save those comments for things that really ARE poor parenting.

I couldn't have said it better Robyn :claps:

[kingclick]

I think she is saying that because she believes that. It may be offensive but here we want to welcome opinions that aren't directed at any member in particular. Now the emoticon may have gone overboard though.

[Echo2]

Do you realize how offensive it is when a parent takes a child someplace they shouldn't and then blames others when the child gets hurt. Luckiky in this case barely bumped.

Why do you find it offesive that someone wants to protect children? Why do you find it offensive that someone states that it is poor parenting to take a child somewhere unsafe.

A professional sporting event is not a safe environment for a small child; todder or baby. If you don't think it is an unsafe environment just look at what happened that started this string. A young boy got bumped around by a roudy fan. Are you saying that roudy and/or drunken fans don't exist? Or that roudy and/ordrunken fans are not dangerous to small children?

You complain when others speak ill of children and now you complain when we speak up protect them. What is going on?

[GracieMae]

That's true KL but as you well know when someone says something that is totally offensive to other members here they are called on it ;)

Echo is well entitled to her opinion just as others are entitled to be offended by it.

[Slabobbin]

I think she is saying that because she believes that.

You can state your beliefs in ways that are not so insulting to others. I wasn't speaking as a mod though, I was speaking as myself when I said that.

It may be offensive but here we want to welcome opinions that aren't directed at any member in particular. Now the emoticon may have gone overboard though.

It's the difference between saying "circing" v/s "mutilating" or "formula" v/s "crap in a can". You can get your opinion across without being insulting.

[Slabobbin]

Do you realize how offensive it is when a parent takes a child someplace they shouldn't and then blames others when the child gets hurt. Luckiky in this case barely bumped.


Who are YOU to say where a child should or should not be? That is strictly up to the parent and opinions greatly vary.

Why do you find it offesive that someone wants to protect children? Why do you find it offensive that someone states that it is poor parenting to take a child somewhere unsafe.

Because it is only your opinion that it is "unsafe". I'd venture to say that taking a child to a baseball game is actually statistically safer than the ride in the car to get there. It is offensive because you have no place saying where someone should or should not take their child. And saying that people who take their children to sporting events are "out of touch with reality" and "shouldn't be allowed to have children" are so far off base that it is laughable.

A professional sporting event is not a safe environment for a small child; todder or baby.

Says YOU. Others obviously disagree.

If you don't think it is an unsafe environment just look at what happened that started this string. A young boy got bumped around by a roudy fan. Are you saying that roudy and/or drunken fans don't exist? Or that roudy and/ordrunken fans are not dangerous to small children?

Ummm, yeah look what happened, an asshole ADULT was out of line. The child did nothing wrong. I say we try to control the rowdy and drunken fans and leave the kids who are minding their own business alone.

[mle30]

another example of apples and oranges could be bumping into a kid vs assaulting one. While the instance with the foul ball was the former, the reaction was more appropriate to the latter.

[GracieMae]

I for one never insinuated the man assulted the chld. He was careless as he could have bowled over anyone, adult, child, elderly person.

[Slabobbin]

From what I understand it was more his attitude about the whole thing than it was the actually going for the ball part. He sounds like a smart ass.

I can honestly see a natural reaction of seeing a ball and going for it and honestly not see a person in your way until after it was over. That doesn't necessarly make you a bd person.

It is how he reacted afterwards that upsets me.

[kingclick]

another example of apples and oranges could be bumping into a kid vs assaulting one. While the instance with the foul ball was the former, the reaction was more appropriate to the latter.
Exactly.


It's the difference between saying "circing" v/s "mutilating" or "formula" v/s "crap in a can". You can get your opinion across without being insulting.

But those words are subjective. One may think that they are using non-inflammatory term while another FREAKS OUT from the same term.

And I understood you weren't modding when you said that, you were just sharing your own opinions! :)

[kingclick]

How did he react? The entire stadium was telling him he should give the ball to the boy and he said no. He was being pressured into giving away a prize posession of his.

[Slabobbin]

But those words are subjective. One may think that they are using non-inflammatory term while another FREAKS OUT from the same term.

I understand that the words are subjective. It really is my personal opinion that circing IS mutilation, that's how I feel, that is my opinion. HOWEVER I have learned (and it took a while, lol) that I loose creditibility when I use that word in debates. I also have learned that people that I consider friends and really respect as parents have circed their sons. I don't want to hurt them. I am an adult and I know the difference between what is acceptable to say and what isn't. While I may feel one way I have learned to put it into better terms and still get my feelings across. That way you can have an actual debate about the topic instead of one about inflamatory words.

[Slabobbin]

How did he react? The entire stadium was telling him he should give the ball to the boy and he said no. He was being pressured into giving away a prize posession of his.

A prize posession? :jester1: It wasn't like it was his grandfather's watch, it was a BALL that he had only gotten a few seconds before.

And I think I read earlier in the thread where someone told him that he had knocked a child out of the way and his response was something like "So?" or "Oh well". At least be embarassed instead of cocky. I can understand it being an accident but be man enough to apologize. Don't hold the ball up and expect cheers right after you have knocked someone down getting to it.

[mle30]

I was responding to MM's response to KLs post, and how MM said KL was redefining 'apples to oranges'

I didn't accuse anyone that "they called this assault". But I do infer from many reactions NATIONWIDE that the reaction would have been appropriate to an assault, not an "oops, I was going for the ball and I wasn't looking where I was going"

I've spilled soda or buttery popcorn on people in movie theatres (try to squeeze by... lid's not on completely... previews are showing.. it happens). It's rude - rude to not take the most convenient seat (aisle, maybe out of the way) instead of making life a mucky hell for the people who got there on time. Sometimes people mentally blink - we're not all buddist's in training - and others get 'bumped' in one way or another. But if someone spilled something onto me, jutted their knees out into my space, even tried to take my own popcorn and candy... none of that makes me or my loved ones entitled to hit them. And none of that makes it okay, IMO, to publish his name, occupation, etc in national news! Jerkiness is just that - jerkiness. Not a crime. Yet the foul ball guy was IMO treated like a criminal, and the family as 'crime survivors'.

It's just a matter of perspective to me. Doesn't even have to do with the particular parents or child or guy to me so much, since I 1. don't know them, 2. don't care, since my life will be impacted by them personally not at all

For me, it could raise social issues, much like how the incidence of kids wearing Spears/Aguilera wear could raise socal issues. And these would be questions, not indictments. Such as, are we reacting appropriately to such issues? Is it an issue at all? Are we as a nation so without answers on the BIG things - war, elections - that we're almost relieved to have an "easy cause" to fight?

[kingclick]

Getting a foul ball is a rare and special event for most people. Every guy that I have talked to about this has said the same thing. "I've been going to games for 20-30 or more years and have never gotten one."

[Echo2]

The term "you" is not meant for anyone in particular.

I'll bet that the people who insist that these types of crouds are safe will be the first ones to start pointing fingers when their kid gets hurt at them. Makeing statements like 'If the adults would act differently" does not make sense. You have no power to change the adults behavior, and you already know that there will be roudy, drunken adults at the event. You do have the power to protect your child. It is about making well thought through choices.

But since I already think there are too many people in this world, you go ahead and take your babies, toddlers and small children to professional sporting events where there are sure to be drunken roudy fans. I will not try to persuade you that it isn't a good idea.

[Slabobbin]

And none of that makes it okay, IMO, to publish his name, occupation, etc in national news! Jerkiness is just that - jerkiness. Not a crime. Yet the foul ball guy was IMO treated like a criminal, and the family as 'crime survivors'.

Frankly I hate jerks, can't stand them. I used to deal with public and I saw a lot of them each and every day. I've often said that if I had a gun and free rein that I could make the world a better place in the matter of a day just by taking out all of the jerks.

So honestly, I couldn't care less what they did to this asshole. Maybe if more jerks had to be accountable for their jerkiness they would start checking themselves.

[GracieMae]

Echo, even making good decisions can't insure the safty of our children. Accidents happen everywhere, not just at sporting events or places you may feel children are in danger at.

[kingclick]

I understand that the words are subjective. It really is my personal opinion that circing IS mutilation, that's how I feel, that is my opinion. HOWEVER I have learned (and it took a while, lol) that I loose creditibility when I use that word in debates. I also have learned that people that I consider friends and really respect as parents have circed their sons. I don't want to hurt them. I am an adult and I know the difference between what is acceptable to say and what isn't. While I may feel one way I have learned to put it into better terms and still get my feelings across. That way you can have an actual debate about the topic instead of one about inflamatory words.
But that is of course based on your environment. I know that no one would even bat an eye if you were talking about female circing and you used the term mutilation.

Again. Trying to imply that only "adults" use the words you choose is a going a little bit far.

Adults can use strong language to convey their emotions.

So if I say.....ugly instead of asthetically challenged, I'm still an adult. As is someone who may use the term breeder instead of selfish parent, out of touch instead of uninformed, Jesus Freak instead of intense follwer of Christ or anything else. They just probably have a different frame of reference than the overly sensitive.

[kingclick]

How was the guy a jerk? At every game people do this ALL the time. It's not a "jerky" action by this guy. It's NORMAL. It's part of the game. Just like someone pointed out that girl getting killed by that puck. It's part of the game!!!! Do we think thaty guy who hit the puck is a jerk and should be villified by the press? No. So neither should this fan.

[Slabobbin]

I'll bet that the people who insist that these types of crouds are safe will be the first ones to start pointing fingers when their kid gets hurt at them. Makeing statements like 'If the adults would act differently" does not make sense. You have no power to change the adults behavior, and you already know that there will be roudy, drunken adults at the event. You do have the power to protect your child. It is about making well thought through choices.

Your logic is flawed. Like I said earlier, there is probably more of a chance on my child getting hurt in a car accident on the way to the game (or anywhere else for that matter) than him getting hurt at the game. So should I never take my child anywhere. There is a chance of housefires and statistics show that most deaths in house fires occur at night. Should I never let my child sleep so that he doesn't die in a house fire?

I'm not insisting that the crowds are SAFE. Nothing in this world is really safe. You could live in a bubble and still die from an anurysm (sp).

And you bet your ass that I would raise hell if my child got hurt through no fault of his own. If my child was acting the fool and fell and got hurt then no, I wouldn't blame anyone buy myself and my child. But if he is just standing there minding his business and he gets hurt (which could happen anywhere) I would raise hell. Just as I would if some moron hurt ME and I was just minding my own business.

[Slabobbin]

How was the guy a jerk? At every game people do this ALL the time. It's not a "jerky" action by this guy. It's NORMAL. It's part of the game. Just like someone pointed out that girl getting killed by that puck. It's part of the game!!!! Do we think thaty guy who hit the puck is a jerk and should be villified by the press? No. So neither should this fan.

I've already explained this earlier. It wasn't the action of going after the ball that made him a jerk. I can see how that would happen and you would be so excited that you wouldn't even notice who was around you.

It was his attitude afterwards that made him a jerk. How hard would it have been to apologize to the kid? When I bump into someone I tell them I am sorry. It is the polite thing to do. It was his reaction of "So?" or "Oh well" after he was told what he had done that was jerky.

As for what words adults are "allowed" to use, they can use any words they choose. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But it DOES say a lot about the person and their respect for others when they know they are being offensive and seem to get off on it.

[mle30]

Well...okay... so at worst he acted jerky. Incompassionate, even. But jerkiness isn't a crime, and 'surviving' jerkiness isn't like surviving a crime. If someone was a total jerk to me in the movie theatres - and I had someone who once *committed a crime* directed AT ME in the movie theatres - you remove said man. If he's a jerk, you do anything from ignore, rebuke, or remove him. If he committed a crime, you detain him for authorities.

This guy committed no crime, and yet his name and ID were plastered everywhere as though her were a defendant on a police blotter. When a guy bothered me, his personal information wasn't disseminated to all the other movie patrons. I was assaulted, but getting a crowd on my side, or a cause, or free stuff, was and still is the furthest thing from my mind.

I just see it as a loss of perspective. The reactions were inappropriate to the act, even including the assumption that the guy didn't care.

[IdahoMom]

How was the guy a jerk? At every game people do this ALL the time. It's not a "jerky" action by this guy. It's NORMAL. It's part of the game. Just like someone pointed out that girl getting killed by that puck. It's part of the game!!!! Do we think thaty guy who hit the puck is a jerk and should be villified by the press? No. So neither should this fan.

I disagree. Just because people do this at ball games ALL THE FRICKIN TIME, doesn't make them less of a jerk. If I see some guy, gal, kid at a ball game running after a foul ball, I'm usually amused and think, geez its just a baseball. However, if I see a guy, gal, kid at a ball game pushing people out of the way, diving over seats, dumping their beer on someone, in order to get a foul ball, I am NOT amused and think, what a JERK. All that over a baseball.

By the way, it isn't "part of the game". It's one of the unimportant side shows that go along with the game. Just like the stupid racing hot dogs.

[kingclick]

So this kind of jerkiness should get the guy announced on TV? And a victim of this kind of jerkiness should get a free flight to New York and tickets to a Mets game because they were treated SOOOOOO badly?

And her logic isn't flawed. You are trying to compare a NECCESARY evil of riding in a car.

But a fan can avoid the "foul ball" areas pretty easily.

So a better comparison would be not buckling your child up in a carseat.

I took my 8 year old to the games with me. And if the ball had come our way, I would have been very protective of him and tried to get the ball while keeping the guys from behind me from squishing him.

I took the risk (and by echos definition I would be a bad parent but I really don't care about her opinion of me on this one) and was willing to live with the consequences of MY actions and not blame it on someone else. This mother here is trying to place the blame that SHE deserves on this guy. And that is just wrong.

[mle30]

Robyn -

It's important for me to note that if this guy's reaction was along the lines of "oh" and "so what", than that is NOT "getting off on it"

Getting off on it implies a sexual, or otherwise strong sense of satisfaction or gratification from the action. That is quite different from just not giving a damn about another's feelings.

[Slabobbin]

I was assaulted, but getting a crowd on my side, or a cause, or free stuff, was and still is the furthest thing from my mind.

I could be wrong but I don't think the little boy egged the crowd on or asked them to "be on his side" nor did he ask for free stuff. All of those things were done on the free will of others.

[Slabobbin]

Robyn -

It's important for me to note that if this guy's reaction was along the lines of "oh" and "so what", than that is NOT "getting off on it"

Getting off on it implies a sexual, or otherwise strong sense of satisfaction or gratification from the action. That is quite different from just not giving a damn about another's feelings.

I wasn't referring to the man at the game's statements, I was referring to the offensive statements made here.

[kingclick]

I disagree. Just because people do this at ball games ALL THE FRICKIN TIME, doesn't make them less of a jerk. If I see some guy, gal, kid at a ball game running after a foul ball, I'm usually amused and think, geez its just a baseball. However, if I see a guy, gal, kid at a ball game pushing people out of the way, diving over seats, dumping their beer on someone, in order to get a foul ball, I am NOT amused and think, what a JERK. All that over a baseball.

By the way, it isn't "part of the game". It's one of the unimportant side shows that go along with the game. Just like the stupid racing hot dogs.
Well here we can agree to disagree. Because I think that the people who go to the ballgames and get all pissed when the ball comes their way and they get squished are jerks. Foul ball souveniers have been part of the game since it became a popular sport. Complaining about foul ball divers is like a prude complaining about cheerleaders at football games. You knew they were there when you decided to attend, if you have a problem with it....DON'T ATTEND.

[Slabobbin]

I took the risk (and by echos definition I would be a bad parent but I really don't care about her opinion of me on this one) and was willing to live with the consequences of MY actions and not blame it on someone else. This mother here is trying to place the blame that SHE deserves on this guy. And that is just wrong.

The mother nor the child deserve any blame in this situation. They were sitting there minding their own business. They are responsible for no one's actions but their own. The man was the one who made the choice to do what he did, he gets 100% of the blame.

[Slabobbin]

Well here we can agree to disagree. Because I think that the people who go to the ballgames and get all pissed when the ball comes their way and they get squished are jerks. Foul ball souveniers have been part of the game since it became a popular sport. Complaining about foul ball divers is like a prude complaining about cheerleaders at football games. You knew they were there when you decided to attend, if you have a problem with it....DON'T ATTEND.

This POV is just foreign to me. I believe in personal responsiblity. The foul ball divers are the ones in the wrong, why should someone in the right have to not go to a game because of someone else's actions? Makes no sense to me. It would make more sense to set some rules and repercusions on the jerks that dive for the balls.

Things change just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it is the right way nor does it mean that there isn't room for change.

[kingclick]

The mother nor the child deserve any blame in this situation. They were sitting there minding their own business. They are responsible for no one's actions but their own. The man was the one who made the choice to do what he did, he gets 100% of the blame.
The mother WAS to blame not the boy. Who would blame a 4 year old boy for not having the attention span to keep watching a game for 3 hours?

But the mother takes 100% of the blame here because she knowingly put her son in a dangerous situation.

[kingclick]

This POV is just foreign to me. I believe in personal responsiblity. The foul ball divers are the ones in the wrong, why should someone in the right have to not go to a game because of someone else's actions? Makes no sense to me. It would make more sense to set some rules and repercusions on the jerks that dive for the balls.

Things change just because something has always been done one way doesn't mean it is the right way nor does it mean that there isn't room for change.
Why should they change it? It's part of the sport and part of the enjoyment for MOST fans. Watch the TV the next time the game is on, almost all of the people that are in the vacinity of a foul/homerun ball are trying to get it. You are gonna tell ALL those people......don't stand up, because if you fall you are gonna break this new rule.

There is no NEED for change of the rules here. Baseball games are not the safeset places for children to be, 99% of the parents going to a ballpark know this and assume that risk. Why should we change it because of 1% of the parents are like this stupid woman?

[Slabobbin]

You should be able to go to a baseball game without the fear of getting hurt by another person, a foul ball, yes, another person, no. I don't feel that a baseball game is a "dangerous situation". ANYONE could get hit and injured by a foul ball so on that logic no one should be going to games. Why does the man who actually did the "injuring" not have any responsibility in your opinion? That makes absolutely no sense.

[kingclick]

People "should be able to go to a ballgame and not be afraid they could get hurt by another fan going for a ball?" Well that is a nice idea. But the problem is, most people enjoy that part of the game as well. And MLB isn't gonna end this practice to satisfy a few clueless parents.

[Slabobbin]

Why should they change it? It's part of the sport and part of the enjoyment for MOST fans. Watch the TV the next time the game is on, almost all of the people that are in the vacinity of a foul/homerun ball are trying to get it. You are gonna tell ALL those people......don't stand up, because if you fall you are gonna break this new rule.

There is no NEED for change of the rules here. Baseball games are not the safeset places for children to be, 99% of the parents going to a ballpark know this and assume that risk. Why should we change it because of 1% of the parents are like this stupid woman?

When I go to a ball game I assume the risk of getting hit by a foul ball. I DON'T assume the risk of being injured by ANOTHER PERSON. Big difference.

I highly doubt that getting trampled by jerks going after a foul ball is really considered enjoyable by most fans. And I watch ball on tv all the time as well as attend several games a year (my DH is an addict, lol). It isn't like I'm talking out of my ass.

I don't think it should be against the rules to try to get a foul ball. But I think if you hurt someone in the process that you should be ejected (and/or face charges depending on the injury). Maybe it would make people think twice before loosing their mind over it.

If I were to injure someone out on the street by doing something stupid I would be charged with assault. Why is it ok to do it at a ball game?

[mle30]

I wasn't referring to the man at the game's statements, I was referring to the offensive statements made here.

Ohhhhh... okay.

Thanks for the info!

[Slabobbin]

People "should be able to go to a ballgame and not be afraid they could get hurt by another fan going for a ball?" Well that is a nice idea. But the problem is, most people enjoy that part of the game as well. And MLB isn't gonna end this practice to satisfy a few clueless parents.

Well I can assure you that my DH, who is probably one of the biggest fans the game has ever seen, would NOT enjoy being trampled by people going after a ball. I highly doubt that most people enjoy that part of the game.

[mle30]

If I were to injure someone out on the street by doing something stupid I would be charged with assault. Why is it ok to do it at a ball game?

To my understanding, there was no injury, and jerkiness and uncaringness are not illegal. So why treat these issues as such?

[kingclick]

Going back to my Metallica reference. If I go to a festival seating concert then get front and center, I am assuming that the people behind me are gonna squish me when the bassist tosses out a pic.

It's EXPECTED.

Same concept applies to a ballgame. People are gonna try and reach for a ball, and when they do, they might not see someone or something and trip. It's part of the game.

[Slabobbin]

To my understanding, there was no injury, and jerkiness and uncaringness are not illegal. So why treat these issues as such?

So if the boy would have been injured you would feel differently? I just want to be clear (not being snarky).

And while jerkiness and uncaringness aren't illegal they DO have their repercussions as this man is finding out. There is WAY too much jerkiness and uncaringness in this world maybe if more people were held accountable for it instead of it being applauded the world would take a change for the better.

[Slabobbin]

Going back to my Metallica reference. If I go to a festival seating concert then get front and center, I am assuming that the people behind me are gonna squish me when the bassist tosses out a pic.

It's EXPECTED.

Same concept applies to a ballgame. People are gonna try and reach for a ball, and when they do, they might not see someone or something and trip. It's part of the game.

And again, if you injure someone in the process of doing this then you should face the consequences. Maybe it will make people look twice before tripping or not seeing someone.

[kingclick]

I wouldn't feel differently. I would still think it was his mother's responsibility to see to his care. And she didn't do that.

[kingclick]

And again, if you injure someone in the process of doing this then you should face the consequences. Maybe it will make people look twice before tripping or not seeing someone.
Effectively ending the practice completely.

[mle30]

If there was an injury, then some culpability comes with injury. Much like car or trip-and-fall accidents. They're accidents, not on-purposes, and not 'cause I'm evil-eses', but then you have to dole out percentages of culpbility and who should be put-out for whose error of judgement.

But to illustrate how out of line the overreaction I think has happened - this kid would have had to have been picked up and thrown bodily out of the way for the punishment to fit the crime.

[Slabobbin]

I see it much like driving v/s drunk driving and getting into an accident. With the former let's say you are going the speed limit, you are an excellent driver, etc. but you hit an oil slick and crash into someone. It would have been unavoidable except that you just don't drive at all.

In the second scenerio you are doing something that has the possibility to cause injury - much like (though to much more of an extreme) diving after a ball with no thought to who may be in your way.

There is only so much you can do while seeing to your child's care. You can't put them in a bubble. There was no way she could have predicted that a foul ball was going to be hit into her area nor that a big ass man was going to dive on top of her son trying to catch it. She holds no blame what-so-ever in this indicent. That's as assinine as saying that she is to blame because she made the decision to birth the child. Makes no sense.

[mle30]

"Bah!" [usually waving hand dismissively at Dilbert]

People aren't perfect, dagnabbit, and I just will not will not will not equate jerkiness with a crime - drunk driving or otherwise.

[Slabobbin]

Shrug, I hold myself to a high standard and I hold others to that standard as well. I don't expect people to be perfect but I do expect them to take personal responsibility when they are not.

[Slabobbin]

Oh, and see the photo of Ben in my siggy? That was taken at a recent Braves game. We had a great time. :curtsey:

[mle30]

actions, decisions, etc, than I am with myself. Thought IMO it's slightly OT to my bottom line, which is, again, that jerkiness doesn't deserve to be treated like a crime.

[Slabobbin]

That is where we disagree, I feel that if it were treated more like a crime instead of like an acceptable, everyday thing then maybe people wouldn't BE so jerky.

[April]

I for one would never consider taking a four year old to a professional sporting event. A four year old isn't even hardly a child yet. He is barely out of being a toddler. It is poor parenting and shows poor judgement. Yes baseball can be a family event. But not babies and toddlers at a professional game. Common sense says take them to A little league game or a high school game where the fans aren't drinking, getting roudy and diving for balls. At four years old he wont even know the difference.

Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children. :whipit:


And what the hell would you know about raising children?? WE'RE the ones out of touch with reality?? My child is UNDER 2 and she was perfectly fine at a minor league baseball game last weekend as was the other two-year old child that was with us.

Your attitude SUCKS and I personally am SICK of your fucking insulting remarks.

[mle30]

Echo2 IS a mom and grandmom. And this is the second time you've used profanity on this thread, the first time being to tell me to STFU (which I had decided to let go until now)

[mle30]

That is where we disagree, I feel that if it were treated more like a crime instead of like an acceptable, everyday thing then maybe people wouldn't BE so jerky.


that's such a slippery slope, though. For me, it falls into rather having the inconveniences of too much freedom rather than too little. Someone here had that Jefferson quote as part of their sig, and I do believe in that idea.

I, for one, try to make the world less jerky by 1. trying to go out of my for others, 2. trying to not be jerky myself, and 3. trying to be forgiving of those who ARE jerky. In my experience, small kindnesses are more persuasive than the largest admonishments.

[Slabobbin]

I don't necessarly think that the large admonishments will change the PERSON, they may still be a jerk on the inside. Only therapy could help with that (among other thing). But if it makes them stop being OUTWARDLY jerky that is good enough for me. :) And granted, I may have a lower tolerance for jerks than most because of the people I have dealt with on the job.

[mom2burgess]

Ok for one, others have been using profanity through out this thread, and profanity is allowed here.

For two, instead of arguing the fact that a baseball game COULD be dangerous, lets remember ANYWHERE you take your child could be a potentially dangerous place to me. The mall play area or a park, you could be subjected to kidnappers, bullies, falls off of equipment. A restaruant a waiter could spill something on your child. A friends home, she could have poisonous plants, or a chemical she forgot to put away. Driving on the road you could get into a car accident, flying jon a plane you could crash, same with a train. In a store the floor could be wet, or a stock person may have stacked items to high, and they could tip over onto a child. The point is things happen even if you are super mom and absolutly perfect, things happen. A parent, or ANYONE for that matter cannot be responsable for the actions of another person. Watch a baseball game, or any other sporting event on TV (opther than golf maybe) and watch when the camera pans into the stands. COunt how many young children are there. There are ALOT. Many people take thier children to sporting events. Why? Because it's time spent as a family, doing something they enjoy and that IS safer than some of you are making it out to be.

I guess the point is, personal responsability. The man, and all ball divers (which I can't understand anyway, but I hate sports so...) need to take responsability that thier actions can hurt someone.

[Jory]

Frankly I hate jerks, can't stand them. I used to deal with public and I saw a lot of them each and every day. I've often said that if I had a gun and free rein that I could make the world a better place in the matter of a day just by taking out all of the jerks.

So honestly, I couldn't care less what they did to this asshole. Maybe if more jerks had to be accountable for their jerkiness they would start checking themselves.

Wow! Good thing there isn't open season on jerks because I am sure there would be only one person standing then.

[kingclick]

So yesterday I took my son to the park. Well at this particular playground basketball hoop. He went to go for a lay-up and came down wrong and sprained his ankle.

Boy was I pissed. I called the Parks Department and let them have it. What do they think they are doing having a dangerous place like that? They need to get rid of all those basketball hoops because my kid got hurt! No one should be able to play at those dangerous basketball hoops because someone could sprain an ankle or bank a knee!!!

When you take your children to a place that has a HIGHER danger level, YOU are agreeing to the risks. Baseballs have been going foul for over 100 years and for over 100 years spectators have been attempting to snag one. It's not the fans job to watch out for someone elses kids. It's not the fans job to make sure that everyone around them has not had back surgery or is pregnant or is carrying a newborn. It's the infirms job to protect themselves, it's the parents job to protect their children.

I guess the next time I take my boy to the ballpark I will hand out a little survey...

"In the unlikely event that a foul ball may come into our area of the park, are you....
Pregnant?
Have any physical ailments?
Have toddlers?
Have infants?
Are blind?
Have sensitive ears (just incase I want to cheer when my team hits a home run)?
Have an allergy to Peanuts?

That way I can be responsible for the happiness of each and every fan that may come into contact with me during the day.

<sarcasm off>

[Echo2]

Wow, king. We agree. Are you getting smarter or am I? (Best not answer that.) LOL

[Mabel]

I don't see where Echo's comments are that horrendous, to be honest. She feels taking a child of that age to a game is poor parenting - just as I think taking a young child to an R rated movie is poor parenting. They are opinions, and I know that not everyone will agree. The only statement of hers I see that has a tone that might insult is this quote:
Some people are so out of touch with reality they just shouldn't be allowed to raise children.
But frankly, that's true too. However, I disagree that parents who take kids to ball games are "out of touch with reality" - I would love to take my son to a ball game some day :)

[mle30]

Jory, Echo, and KL are saying my views pretty well. Good thing there are a lot of people on the board smarter than me.
:)

[Beelzebub]

I have to agree. I believe taking a four year old to a game to be a big mistake.

It is very naive to expect thousands of fans to be careful of a few children in the stands, especially when they are hyped up and into watching the game.

Half the time it isn't safe for adults (I've attended games and have seen adults crushed to death) let alone small children.

[Echo2]

OK, I do appologise for my statement about "out of touch". Although as a general statement, I believe it, I don't think it applies to parents who take small kids to games.

I do however stand by my statement that SMALL children should not be taken into a croud or roudy, sports fans who may be drinking and are most definetly not paying attention to the people around them. LOL. I guess golf and tennis woud be safe but then you'd have to worry about the kids making noise. wink..

[Mabel]

Take em to a Brewers game. Believe me, there will be no balls hit far enough to pass the barriers LOL.