Christmas tree decorations

[Pops In]

I have a little teddy bear to hang on my tree. His name is Muhammad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stm

[JPSartre12]

I have a little teddy bear to hang on my tree. His name is Muhammad.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7119399.stm


I'm going to name the condom in my pocket Mohammed and any Muslim that take umbridge to it can go fuck themselves (and I'll provide the glove.) ;)

[eva]

I was thinking they should make a line of bears named Mohammed as a fund raiser for her. The whole thing is crazy.

[Pops In]

I was thinking they should make a line of bears named Mohammed as a fund raiser for her. The whole thing is crazy.It would be absolutely crazy if that's all there was to it....

Sudan's top clerics, known as the Assembly of the Ulemas, said in a statement on Wednesday that parents had handed them a book the teacher was assembling about the bear. "She, in a very abusive manner, used the name of Prophet Muhammad, may Allah shame her," the statement said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sudan/story/0,,2218624,00.html Still crazy, but a different slant.

[kingclick]

I just took a really big dump in the toilet.

I named it muhammad.

[eva]

Of course she was tying it into a reading and writing lesson. That's a very common technique - take something dear to the students, name it, and have the children write about it. Why didn't the parents from the school complain to her and tell her how it could be/was being perceived? Perhaps they were out to get her for some reason? But then, why send their children to a British/non-muslim school?

[flygirl]

When teen was in his last year of middle school (during that whole flap about the Danish cartoons of Muhammed), he met up with a boy in the hall, who's been his friend from kindergarten on, and who's family is Islamic. It's common knowledge that our family is of Danish extraction, and teen has a very slight accent simply from being raised in our family. The encounter went like this;
"Hey A, 'sup?"
"oh, you know, burning the Danish flag"
"coo, wanna chill at my place later and check out my muhammed drawings?"
They've been friends forever, they were obviously joking with each other about adult absurdities, but a teacher heard them, they were rushed to the office, parents were called, the word 'suspension' was bandied about, as were, 'attorney', 'lawsuit', and 'litigation'. In the end it was a tempest in a teapot, but really, how ludicrous does this PC thing have to get? If the KIDS named the damn bear, why should a foreign teacher have any reason to think that it's an insult to them in any way? If the kids named the bear, then the parents who took offense should punish their children in whatever manner appropriate, not the teacher.
'Part of the western plot against Islam'??? What an absurd level of paranoia! There's medication for that now.

[jitobear]

hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion...................................

[JPSartre12]

I just took a really big dump in the toilet.

I named it muhammad.

Did you face East as you flushed? ;)

[jitobear]

hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion...................................


More reason: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/29/jehovahs.witness.ap/index.html

hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it

[JPSartre12]

More reason: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/29/jehovahs.witness.ap/index.html

hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it hate it

IMO, that's Darwinism as it's supposed to work. People that don't want to partake in modern medicine can die as a result, not breed and decrease the number of religious fanatics in the world. :trophy:

[jitobear]

IMO, that's Darwinism as it's supposed to work. People that don't want to partake in modern medicine can die as a result, not breed and decrease the number of religious fanatics in the world. :trophy:

He was a 14 year old boy brainwashed into giving up his life. How can you rejoice at his death? Thats pretty damned foul, JP.

[FaeryGem]

Ok...Im gonna be the first to say that this post is a little dstasteful. I abhorr the Muslims in Sudan for persecuting that lady for an honest mistake. it sucks and I wish that they would just send her home. But not all Muslims are like that. There are Muslims here and in other countries that are freaking out that the lady has been treated that way. They want her set free as much as the rest of us do. I just dont think its fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Julie

[Pops In]

Ok...Im gonna be the first to say that this post is a little dstasteful. I abhorr the Muslims in Sudan for persecuting that lady for an honest mistake. it sucks and I wish that they would just send her home. But not all Muslims are like that. There are Muslims here and in other countries that are freaking out that the lady has been treated that way. They want her set free as much as the rest of us do. I just dont think its fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Julie
I, for one, didn't do that. I've seen them on the telly, even Muslims in Khartoum condemning the action. Though can you deny that religion is the basis of it?



ETA: Just went to the Beeb news site. There's a big demo from those who think the punishment is not enough. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7121025.stm

[jitobear]

Ok...Im gonna be the first to say that this post is a little dstasteful. I abhorr the Muslims in Sudan for persecuting that lady for an honest mistake. it sucks and I wish that they would just send her home. But not all Muslims are like that. There are Muslims here and in other countries that are freaking out that the lady has been treated that way. They want her set free as much as the rest of us do. I just dont think its fair to tar everyone with the same brush.

Julie

I know there are good Muslims and Christians and Hindus and Pagans. I just hate religion.

[JPSartre12]

He was a 14 year old boy brainwashed into giving up his life. How can you rejoice at his death? Thats pretty damned foul, JP.

I was a 14 year old boy once and IMO, the chances of him being "brainwashed" are slim. And if he really was, then there's one less brainwashed automaton running around in the world today. Either way, Darwinism worked.

[jitobear]

I was a 14 year old boy once and IMO, the chances of him being "brainwashed" are slim. And if he really was, then there's one less brainwashed automaton running around in the world today. Either way, Darwinism worked.

Pardon me - but I do not comprehend your glee at the death of a child.

[Pops In]

IMO, that's Darwinism as it's supposed to work. People that don't want to partake in modern medicine can die as a result, not breed and decrease the number of religious fanatics in the world. :trophy:

I was a 14 year old boy once and IMO, the chances of him being "brainwashed" are slim. And if he really was, then there's one less brainwashed automaton running around in the world today. Either way, Darwinism worked.A barbaric, anti-Christian sentiment if ever I heard one. Pat Robertson, eat your heart out!

[JPSartre12]

Pardon me - but I do not comprehend your glee at the death of a child.
It's not glee. It's an awareness that stupid people do stupid things. In this instance, his stupidity won't be propagated further.

A barbaric, anti-Christian sentiment if ever I heard one. Pat Robertson, eat your heart out!

I'm a pragmatic Christian. If we kill all of the heathens, miscreant, etc., there'll be lots of open space in Heaven. ;)

[Pops In]

It's not glee. It's an awareness that stupid people do stupid things. In this instance, his stupidity won't be propagated further.



I'm a pragmatic Christian. If we kill all of the heathens, miscreant, etc., there'll be lots of open space in Heaven. ;)In short, Anti-Christian.

[JPSartre12]

In short, Anti-Christian.

And what would you know of Christianity? :headscrat

[Pops In]

And what would you know of Christianity? :headscratA fucking sight more than you, obviously.

[JPSartre12]

A fucking sight more than you, obviously.

I'm not the one that humor-impaired.......obviously. ;)

[jitobear]

It's not glee. It's an awareness that stupid people do stupid things. In this instance, his stupidity won't be propagated further.

His stupid fucking religion teaches him that he can't be saved if he accepts a blood transfusion.

But maybe here you can get an idea of EXACTLY how innane your religious rules on things like gay marriage are. Really really really really really fucking stupid.

:mad:

[kingclick]

hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion hate religion...................................

I read an article about a black guy killing his kids.

hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people........

I read an article about a vegan mother letting her child starve to death.

hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans

[JPSartre12]

His stupid fucking religion teaches him that he can't be saved if he accepts a blood transfusion.

But maybe here you can get an idea of EXACTLY how innane your religious rules on things like gay marriage are. Really really really really really fucking stupid.

:mad:

Being against gay marriage isn't life-threatening AFAIK. :rolleyes2

In fact, being averse to homosexuality will allow one to live longer, statistically speaking.

[jitobear]

Being against gay marriage isn't life-threatening AFAIK. :rolleyes2

In fact, being averse to homosexuality will allow one to live longer, statistically speaking.

Just know that I think any religious rule that has no secular purpose is fucking stupid. Should I want you and yours out of the gene pool, too?

[eva]

I abhorr the Muslims in Sudan for persecuting that lady for an honest mistake. it sucks and I wish that they would just send her home. But not all Muslims are like that

I don't see that anyone said that.

Religion has done much good in the world as well as much bad. Religion can't be blamed for the wrong-doing of people. People must take that responsibility themselves.

[jitobear]

I read an article about a black guy killing his kids.

hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people hate black people........

I read an article about a vegan mother letting her child starve to death.

hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans hate vegans

First of all - I never claimed to hate anyone. As a matter of fact I pointed out that I know good people of many faiths. I am condemning an insitution - religion. I am even aware that religious organizations have done good things - especially in modern times. Those good things just don't outweigh or forgive the stupidity, violence, and bigotry that they have been and continue to be used to justify.

Surely you have heard that quote; "Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, for good people to do bad things all it takes is religion."

And secondly - condemnation of said institution (religion) does not come from reading an article - its comes from lots stories of abuse of power, prejudice and violence throughout history combined with personal experience.

[JPSartre12]

Just know that I think any religious rule that has no secular purpose is fucking stupid. Should I want you and yours out of the gene pool, too?

You'd be a fool if you did. I sire champions. :trophy: :trophy:

[JPSartre12]

I don't see that anyone said that.

Religion has done much good in the world as well as much bad. Religion can't be blamed for the wrong-doing of people. People must take that responsibility themselves.

While I'm sure that the majoity of Muslims are peaceful people, the religion is one of aggression towards non-believers. There is no question about that.
Islam was founded on aggression and the ultimate goal of the religion is to convert the world to its doctrine. There is no "living in peace with non-believers". It is about subjugation to the will of Allah.

[eva]

While I'm sure that the majoity of Muslims are peaceful people, the religion is one of aggression towards non-believers. There is no question about that.
Islam was founded on aggression and the ultimate goal of the religion is to convert the world to its doctrine. There is no "living in peace with non-believers". It is about subjugation to the will of Allah.



Historically speaking, Christianity and Catholicism can be viewed that way as well, no?

[JPSartre12]

Historically speaking, Christianity and Catholicism can be viewed that way as well, no?

Show me where in the Bible it tells believers to force non-believers to believe. I'll wait.

[eva]

You know that's not what I said, JP. I said it could be viewed that way through history. Much conquering, killing, and torturing has been done in the name of soul-saving and you know it.

[JPSartre12]

You know that's not what I said, JP. I said it could be viewed that way through history. Much conquering, killing, and torturing has been done in the name of soul-saving and you know it.

I'm not talking about "views". I'm talking about the written word. Islam is a fundamentally aggressive religion, Christianity isn't. Agreed that all religions can/have been manipulated in order to further unscrupulous peoples' agendas, but the fact is thatIslam is an aggressive religion through its word.

[eva]

There are many muslims that claim Islam is a peaceful religion. Since I couldn't go head to head with them in quoting the Koran, how do I know who to believe? Are you saying those who can point to peaceful Koran passages and claim it is peaceful are outright lying? Or are they interpreting the religion differently? Just as the soldiers in the Crusade interpreted the Bible differently?

[kingclick]

First of all - I never claimed to hate anyone. As a matter of fact I pointed out that I know good people of many faiths. I am condemning an insitution - religion. I am even aware that religious organizations have done good things - especially in modern times. Those good things just don't outweigh or forgive the stupidity, violence, and bigotry that they have been and continue to be used to justify.Right, I keep forgetting that people are evil because of religion instead of just using it as an excuse. Soccer fans kill people too, I guess that makes it worth hating soccer. Your stance not only shows a lack of intelligence but also a lack of depth of character to "hate" a concept based on the actions of some people related to that concept while ignoring the multitude of good that is done THROUGH that concept.

Surely you have heard that quote; "Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, for good people to do bad things all it takes is religion."Sure but just because someone said something totally asinine before doesn't make it any true or intelligent today.

And secondly - condemnation of said institution (religion) does not come from reading an article - its comes from lots stories of abuse of power, prejudice and violence throughout history combined with personal experience.Not only from those things but from a bigoted and hateful point of view that doesn't actually use rational thought to come to conclusions. And it is VERY ironic that you would include prejudice in YOUR bad things about religion when you yourself exhibit that very trait without the redeeming values that "religion" has offered the world.

Your stance is so stupid it is nearly maddening.

I could say the same about the "institution" of government. I could say the same about the institution of "education".

I can give you stories of abuse of power, prejudice and violence through history that I can attribute to the institution of "government" and the institution of "education". Yet I am neither that naive NOR am I that prejudice.

Rethink your stance or MAYBE actually think it for the first time.

[kingclick]

I don't see that anyone said that.

Religion has done much good in the world as well as much bad. Religion can't be blamed for the wrong-doing of people. People must take that responsibility themselves.

Some people are so bigoted and ignorant they cannot see that fact.

[JPSartre12]

There are many muslims that claim Islam is a peaceful religion. Since I couldn't go head to head with them in quoting the Koran, how do I know who to believe? Are you saying those who can point to peaceful Koran passages and claim it is peaceful are outright lying? Or are they interpreting the religion differently? Just as the soldiers in the Crusade interpreted the Bible differently?

There are literally hundreds of passages in the Koran that talk about killiing disbelievers. Show me one example in the Bible.

---66.9: "O Prophet! strive hard against the infidels and the hypocrites, and be hard against them; for their abode is hell; and evil is their resort."

---48.29: "Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the infidels, compassionate among themselves".

---48.13: "Whoever does not believe in Allah and His Apostle, then surely WE have prepared burning fire for the infidels".

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Excerpt K 8:007
Set 26, Count 59 ...Allah promised you one of the two (enemy) parties, that it should be yours: Ye wished that the one unarmed should be yours, but Allah willed to justify the Truth according to His words and to cut off the roots of the Unbelievers.

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Excerpt K 8:015-017
Set 29, Count 63-65 [8.15] ...when you meet those who disbelieve marching for war, then turn not your backs to them. [8.16] ...for the sake of fighting... [8.17] So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote [Allah gets the credit for Jihad]...

Excerpt K 8:065-075
Set 32, Count 80-90 [8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam]. [8.66] ...if there are a hundred patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a thousand they shall overcome two thousand by Allah's permission... [8.67] It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods [i.e., ransom money] of this world... [8.68] ...ransom... [8.69] Eat then of the lawful and good (things) which you have acquired in war [war spoils]...[8.70] O Prophet! say to those of the captives [non-Muslims] who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you [in Jihad]...[8.71] Yusuf Ali: But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Apostle!)...He [Allah] given (thee) power over them...[8.72] Yusuf Ali: Those who ...fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of God...[8.73] Yusuf Ali: The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief. [8.74] Yusuf Ali:...fight for the Faith...[8.75] Yusuf Ali: ...fight for the Faith...

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html

[eva]

Excerpt K 2:190-191
Set 2, Count 3+4 [2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Those are the only ones that I think literally support what you are saying. Others could be interpreted symbolically. Just as anything in the Bible can. I'm not going to try to go on a scripture war with you because I'm not versed enough in either religion. But I know that there are many who are...Who've written entire books on the bible advocating violence. In the end, it's all about what the people want to see. That's why we have to lay the blame and credit for war and peace on the people practicing the religion, not the religion itself.
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Holy-Scripture-Dark-Bible/dp/0664257399

[PlayBall40]

While I'm sure that the majoity of Muslims are peaceful people, the religion is one of aggression towards non-believers. There is no question about that.
Islam was founded on aggression and the ultimate goal of the religion is to convert the world to its doctrine. There is no "living in peace with non-believers". It is about subjugation to the will of Allah.Bull.

[Matthew S]

This is an example of why religion must not have any say in politics, in the shaping of laws, and public policy.

[Matthew S]

I was thinking they should make a line of bears named Mohammed as a fund raiser for her. The whole thing is crazy.


That is not a bad idea. :) :cheer: :congrats:

[JPSartre12]

Those are the only ones that I think literally support what you are saying. Others could be interpreted symbolically. Just as anything in the Bible can. I'm not going to try to go on a scripture war with you because I'm not versed enough in either religion. But I know that there are many who are...Who've written entire books on the bible advocating violence. In the end, it's all about what the people want to see. That's why we have to lay the blame and credit for war and peace on the people practicing the religion, not the religion itself.
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Holy-Scripture-Dark-Bible/dp/0664257399

Do you know the history of Mohammed? Do you know how he came into power? He united Arab tribes and fought agaist Christians, Jews and other Arabs. What peaceful religion are you aware of that was born out of war? What prophet do you know of that assassinated enemies? Mohammed did.
I'm guessing that your knowledge of Mohammed and Islam in general is severely limited, right?

[eva]

JP, I'm not arguing with you that the religion has violent history or ties...I'm just saying that the same can be said of the history of Christianity. I'm just saying that the people who practice the religion are not necessarily all violent.

[ArcticPhoenix]

Do you know the history of Mohammed? Do you know how he came into power? He united Arab tribes and fought agaist Christians, Jews and other Arabs. What peaceful religion are you aware of that was born out of war? What prophet do you know of that assassinated enemies? Mohammed did.
I'm guessing that your knowledge of Mohammed and Islam in general is severely limited, right?

Do you know the history of Christianity? Do you know how it came to be a world power?

You're so full of shiat the toilets here in Spokane are backing up, JP. The aquifer and Spokane river is full, and there is a foul stench on the air.

Mohammad only went to war against those that were violent towards him. Yes, the religion was partially born out of violence, but so was Christianity. And, when you look at the core tenets, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism aren't that incompatible at all. Most of their core beliefs are the same, with a couple of distinctions: Islam is works-based, Christianity (most sects) is not, and there are some other minor differences, but works-based vs. faith-based is the primary difference between the two.

On the flip side, I had a couple of friends when I was in college who were both Muslim. One was very interested in converting me, and one was just happy to be my friend. I wasn't interested in converting, nor was I interested in converting them to Christianity. But I did learn that Muslims, by and large, believe that Christians are polytheists. Amir was absolutely convinced that he *knew* that Christians were polytheists, because of the Trinity.

I think there's just as much ignorance going around in the religious members of Islam as there are in the religious members of Christianity. And you've proven that with your blind hatred for Muslims.

[ArcticPhoenix]

I just want to see if I have this situation correct... it goes like this?

Mahafir Sammahammarammafassir, Grand High Poobah of the Order of Hajadin: "Our holy scriptures specifically forbid any portrayal of our prophet. We cannot permit people to slander and mock our prophet and insult all of us. These people are simply doing this to see if we are extremists. Death to the blasphemers!"


Did I get that about right?

[JPSartre12]

Do you know the history of Christianity? Do you know how it came to be a world power?
You may not want to believe it, but your thick skull is not my problem

You're so full of shiat the toilets here in Spokane are backing up, JP. The aquifer and Spokane river is full, and there is a foul stench on the air.


Show me where the Bible yeaches Christians to force non-brelievers to submit or be killed. You can't It isn't part of the Christian faith. It is, however, part of the Koran and I can cite you examples all day long.

Mohammad only went to war against those that were violent towards him. Yes, the religion was partially born out of violence, but so was Christianity. And, when you look at the core tenets, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism aren't that incompatible at all. Most of their core beliefs are the same, with a couple of distinctions: Islam is works-based, Christianity (most sects) is not, and there are some other minor differences, but works-based vs. faith-based is the primary difference between the two.

I see. So, you're saying that Musims would be perfectly happy living side-by-side to atheists, agnostics, Jews, Hindus, etc.? Who the Hell are you trying to kid?
:lol:

On the flip side, I had a couple of friends when I was in college who were both Muslim. One was very interested in converting me, and one was just happy to be my friend. I wasn't interested in converting, nor was I interested in converting them to Christianity. But I did learn that Muslims, by and large, believe that Christians are polytheists. Amir was absolutely convinced that he *knew* that Christians were polytheists, because of the Trinity.

So, since we're polytheists, it's OK to kill us, right? Doesn't the Koran tell Muslims that it's OK to kill the non-believers?

I think there's just as much ignorance going around in the religious members of Islam as there are in the religious members of Christianity. And you've proven that with your blind hatred for Muslims.
Another poor assumption on your part. I live in the area with the highest population of Arabs outside of the ME. I don't have a blind hatred for Muslims. I just don't turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the basis and teachings of their religion. I call it what it is. You can think that it's a religion of peace all you like. I've read enough of the Koran to know better.

[ArcticPhoenix]

Show me where the Bible yeaches Christians to force non-brelievers to submit or be killed. You can't It isn't part of the Christian faith. It is, however, part of the Koran and I can cite you examples all day long. Dude, that isn't part of the Koran either. Now, the Koran does say that if you convert FROM Islam, then you must be killed. But if you are already another faith, then you are just taxed at a higher rate. As far as the Bible telling Christians to kill someone, well... Christians didn't exist until a few hundred years A.D. (the first "Christians" called themselves Jews, or, I believe, Messaianic Jews). However, there are many instances of God commanding His followers to kill people. Do you want those examples?

So, since we're polytheists, it's OK to kill us, right? Doesn't the Koran tell Muslims that it's OK to kill the non-believers? No, see above.

Another poor assumption on your part. I live in the area with the highest population of Arabs outside of the ME. I don't have a blind hatred for Muslims. I just don't turn a deaf ear and blind eye to the basis and teachings of their religion. I call it what it is. You can think that it's a religion of peace all you like. I've read enough of the Koran to know better. Right, you live in an area where there are a lot of Muslims, so you *must* know something about their culture! Just like I live in an area where there are a lot of Russians, so I must know their language.

I never called Islam a religion of peace. It's merely a religion, no different from Christianity, Judaism, Jainism, Hinduism, Asatru, Shinto, etc. They're all screwed up, they're all fairy tales, and there's violence in pretty much every religion. That's part of mankind.

You go ahead and read the Koran, but I find it hard to believe you're that fluent in Arabic. And, if you know the Koran so well, if I recall correctly, no other version than the one written in Arabic is accepted as final and definitive, because the Koran contains the words of God.

[Matthew S]

Show me where the Bible yeaches Christians to force non-brelievers to submit or be killed. You can't It isn't part of the Christian faith. It is, however, part of the Koran and I can cite you examples all day long.



Consider this http://www.rotten.com/library/history/inquisition/

The current Pope was the head of the inquisition before becomming Pope.

[JPSartre12]

Consider this http://www.rotten.com/library/history/inquisition/

The current Pope was the head of the inquisition before becomming Pope.

And once again I ask. Show me where the Bible advocates killing non-believers. Last time I checked, the Pope wasn't its author.

[Raven]

Do you know the history of Christianity? Do you know how it came to be a world power?

You're so full of shiat the toilets here in Spokane are backing up, JP. The aquifer and Spokane river is full, and there is a foul stench on the air.

Mohammad only went to war against those that were violent towards him. Yes, the religion was partially born out of violence, but so was Christianity. And, when you look at the core tenets, Islam, Christianity, and Judaism aren't that incompatible at all. Most of their core beliefs are the same, with a couple of distinctions: Islam is works-based, Christianity (most sects) is not, and there are some other minor differences, but works-based vs. faith-based is the primary difference between the two.

On the flip side, I had a couple of friends when I was in college who were both Muslim. One was very interested in converting me, and one was just happy to be my friend. I wasn't interested in converting, nor was I interested in converting them to Christianity. But I did learn that Muslims, by and large, believe that Christians are polytheists. Amir was absolutely convinced that he *knew* that Christians were polytheists, because of the Trinity.

I think there's just as much ignorance going around in the religious members of Islam as there are in the religious members of Christianity..:cheer: :cheer: :agree:

[jitobear]

Right, I keep forgetting that people are evil because of religion instead of just using it as an excuse.

I said that there are good people of all faiths - and that religion is used as a justification for great evil. I said it more than once. I think this is the third time.

Soccer fans kill people too, I guess that makes it worth hating soccer.

Its generally the same idea. A fanatical loyalty to some thing or some idea that causes people to behave reprehensibly. The difference between soccer and religion is frequency and public opinion. Most people consider soccer fans who act as such criminal and the instances are rare. But religion is main-stream. Fanaticism is common. And damage is still being carried out in its name, right here in the USA - and its considered OK. Its muddled up in government impacting the way science is taught, medicine is practiced and gays are treated. I won't even bring up the damage it does in the Middle East, or in recent decades in Ireland.

Your stance not only shows a lack of intelligence but also a lack of depth of character to "hate" a concept based on the actions of some people related to that concept while ignoring the multitude of good that is done THROUGH that concept.

I don't hate anyone. This is the second time I have said this. I hate religion. It is more sacred than human-kind and therefore human kind has always been expendable in its name.

Sure but just because someone said something totally asinine before doesn't make it any true or intelligent today.

Oh - I think its very true. Most of the religious power-brokers may have been evil - but those every day folk who accused women of being witches, rode off on crusades, traveled the world converting the pagans and who are today doing all they can to ensure gay families have little to no protection are generally good people - - acting in horrible ways because there religion tells them these reprehensible acts are right.

Not only from those things but from a bigoted and hateful point of view that doesn't actually use rational thought to come to conclusions.

This is a rather large judgement call based on one thing. I am not irrational in my hatred of religion. I read about its impacts throughout history, seen its impacts today and tried studying varying faiths.

I was raised Lutheran, married to a Catholic, tried paganism and studied with Pentacostals, the Salvation Army and Witnesses. The last congregation I was in was when my son was about 6. He needed a good male role model. I mentioned it to the elders but nobody was interested. Then after two years on a waiting list Big Brothers of Minnesota came through with a mentor who happened to be gay. All of a sudden everyone was very interested in making sure I did not allow this man in our lives. That was the final straw for me. Turns out that mentor was one the best things to ever happen in our lives and he is now my son's adopted father and an amazing man. I shudder to think what would have been lost had I listened to religion rather than reason.

I used far more rational thought when I rejected religion than when I embraced it.

And it is VERY ironic that you would include prejudice in YOUR bad things about religion when you yourself exhibit that very trait without the redeeming values that "religion" has oeffered the world.

This is now the second time that I have said that I am aware of the good religion has done.

Your stance is so stupid it is nearly maddening.

Your knee jerk reaction and attributing points of view and comments I did not make is stupid.

I could say the same about the "institution" of government. I could say the same about the institution of "education".

I can give you stories of abuse of power, prejudice and violence through history that I can attribute to the institution of "government" and the institution of "education". Yet I am neither that naive NOR am I that prejudice.

One could say it about government for sure. It most certainly has been used to great evil. I just don't see how we can survive without it. And at least it can rely on facts and reason. Religion relies on faith and is not necesary. I begrudge no-one their faith, but I have no use for it and do not want it in my life and I hate the institution that faith usually creates.

Education is a powerful tool and its in everything. One can most certainly teach evil. But once again we have to have education or we would all sit around doing nothing.

Rethink your stance or MAYBE actually think it for the first time.

No. I have thought about this quite thoroughly. I hate religion and do not want it in my life.

For the record - I am talking about ALL religion.

Also, for the record, I draw a distinction between religion and faith.

[JPSartre12]

More passages from the Koran:

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73


Does this sound like a religion of peace to you?

[JPSartre12]

:cheer: :cheer: :agree:

I see that you're clueless, as usual. Want to debate the Koran? I'm game, but I'm guessing that you're just nuthugging here. :pointandl

[Pops In]

Oh it's the 'my religion is better than your religion' again. :lol:

We know that the bible advocates death for witches, homosexuals, adulterers, unbelievers... We know the bible advocates rape, slavery, slaughter, stoning.... If not 'advocate' it certainly doesn't disapprove.

No, Christianity is no better or worse than any other organised religion. Witness your picket funerals nutters, Koolaid nutters, nutters that let children die rather than make use of life saving treatment...

All I know about Islam is it has similar brain twisted nutters.

[JPSartre12]

Oh it's the 'my religion is better than your religion' again. :lol:

We know that the bible advocates death for witches, homosexuals, adulterers, unbelievers... We know the bible advocates rape, slavery, slaughter, stoning.... If not 'advocate' it certainly doesn't disapprove.

No, Christianity is no better or worse than any other organised religion. Witness your picket funerals nutters, Koolaid nutters, nutters that let children die rather than make use of life saving treatment...

All I know about Islam is it has similar brain twisted nutters.

Show me the passage in the Bible that advocates killing witches.
:pinocchio

[eva]

The point is, JP, that in the history of Christianity, the Bible has been bastardized in interpretation to justify horrid, horrid acts. Whether it's the literal word or the interpretation or the leaders doesn't matter...the fact is that religion is made up of people and people make the good or bad choices. The book doesn't make the choice for you.

[JPSartre12]

The point is, JP, that in the history of Christianity, the Bible has been bastardized in interpretation to justify horrid, horrid acts. Whether it's the literal word or the interpretation or the leaders doesn't matter...the fact is that religion is made up of people and people make the good or bad choices. The book doesn't make the choice for you.

I beg to differ. It does matter. On one hand you have a doctrine that teaches its believers to kill the unbelievers. This is a fundamental difference between Christianity and Islam. People may bastardize Christianity in order to serve their political agendas, but there's no need to bastardize the Koran. It states the justification for "Jihah" in hundreds of places.
It is fundamentally a religion of intolerance.

[Pops In]

Show me the passage in the Bible that advocates killing witches.
:pinocchioExodus 22:18

[Raven]

Exodus 22:18 (King James Version) Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

various version use "witch" "witchcraft" or "sorceress". Of course, many bible scholars and non-christians will argue that "witch" is a mistranslation and that the word should have been "poisoner". Personally, I think it was "mistranslated" on purpose as an excuse to get rid of midwives and females healers as they were a threat to the power/authority of the male ruled church.

Nevertheless, most christians learned it from the King James version and most fundamentalists will tell you that it means EXACTLY what it says - all witches should be put to death

Here is an example of what some christians are taught: http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/witch.asp

[Jory]

:pointandl

[eva]

I'm pretty sure that the victims of the Crusades and the Salem Witch Trials would say it doesn't matter whether it's in the book or not. The action is what counts. Sticks and stones and all that. The words in the book don't have the power - the people do.

[JPSartre12]

Exodus 22:18

Thanks. I guess you do learn something new every day. :thanku:

[Matthew S]

And once again I ask. Show me where the Bible advocates killing non-believers. Last time I checked, the Pope wasn't its author.

Leviticus, chapter 20
1: And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2: Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
3: And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
4: And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5: Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
6: And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
7: Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.
8: And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.
9: For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10: And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
11: And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
12: And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.
13: If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
14: And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
15: And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
16: And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
17: And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.
18: And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.
19: And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.
20: And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.
21: And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.
22: Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
23: And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I cast out before you: for they committed all these things, and therefore I abhorred them.
24: But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
25: Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.
26: And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
27: A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Above are the death codes


And below it applies to the strangers who could be non believers.

Leviticus, chapter 24
14: Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.
15: And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
16: And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
Leviticus, chapter 24
22: Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the LORD your God.

So you see the bible is very clear that law is to apply to all and the death sentences apply to everyone.

[Pops In]

A barbaric, anti-Christian sentiment if ever I heard one. Pat Robertson, eat your heart out!

In short, Anti-Christian.

And what would you know of Christianity? :headscrat

A fucking sight more than you, obviously.

Show me the passage in the Bible that advocates killing witches.
:pinocchio

Exodus 22:18

:huh:

[Jory]

oh come on you guys. Yeah, the bible says all that shit but that isn't what it REALLY means. Oh no wait...I mean it really does mean it all but just not that way. Or...well Jesus is real because the bible says so but all that other stuff that sounds Karayzay is just meant to be taken as a metaphor... or something. yeah, that is the ticket. But it is all real except the killing of people because we're all about being tolerant...see! Look how tolerant we are. Not like those crazy muslims. Nosirreee.

[kingclick]

Sad. The ignorance on this board is astounding. Not only does the ignorance abound it is encouraged and praised as something good and funny.

Christianity isn't based on the Old Testament. Using old Testament scriptures to prove that Judiasm is bad would be one thing, but Christianity is not BASED on the old testament.

That would be like basing the opinion of the United States on the how the Kings of England treated their subjects!

I don't know enough about Islam to make a very valid stance, however I know Christianity more than any of the detractors here.

[kingclick]

For the record - I am talking about ALL religion.

For the record, this is pretty much the most important thing you have said. It clearly shows you are a bigot and at this point and time I wont waste my breath arguing with someone who is a bigot.

I wont argue with Fred Phelps, I wont argue with someone of the KKK and I won't argue this subject with you. It's a waste of my time.

[Matthew S]

Sad. The ignorance on this board is astounding. Not only does the ignorance abound it is encouraged and praised as something good and funny.

Christianity isn't based on the Old Testament. Using old Testament scriptures to prove that Judiasm is bad would be one thing, but Christianity is not BASED on the old testament.

That would be like basing the opinion of the United States on the how the Kings of England treated their subjects!

I don't know enough about Islam to make a very valid stance, however I know Christianity more than any of the detractors here.


Except you forgot one little fact, well not little, christonazis and christianists believe that the moral laws of leviticus are still in effect and use the bible as a weapon against my people. Remember also that christianist fundamentalists believe that every word in the bible is Gods unchanging litteral word. They believe that the bible is litteral truth. So to a christianist fundamentalist christianity is based upon the old testament. BTW I doubt you know more about christianity then I do.

[Matthew S]

oh come on you guys. Yeah, the bible says all that shit but that isn't what it REALLY means. Oh no wait...I mean it really does mean it all but just not that way. Or...well Jesus is real because the bible says so but all that other stuff that sounds Karayzay is just meant to be taken as a metaphor... or something. yeah, that is the ticket. But it is all real except the killing of people because we're all about being tolerant...see! Look how tolerant we are. Not like those crazy muslims. Nosirreee.

To a christonazi the bible is the litteral word of God to be used as a weapon against sinners.

The christian fundamentalist believes that the bible is the unchanging literal word of God and everything in that book is fact. They have to for them to question one part of the bible is to question all parts.

[JPSartre12]

Above are the death codes

And below it applies to the strangers who could be non believers.

So you see the bible is very clear that law is to apply to all and the death sentences apply to everyone.


You just proved my point. The LAW was to be applied to all, not just non-believers. The Koran teaches that The Law makes distinctions between believers and non-believers. There is a definite difference between the laws pertaining to believers and those pertaining to non-believers in the Koran. Read Sharia Law pertaining to bearing witness against another, for example.

[JPSartre12]

:huh:

Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. ;)

[Pops In]

Even a blind squirrel occasionally finds an acorn. ;)But your nest's got more nuts in it.

[flygirl]

sorry to interrupt this delightful banter but...
I see common sense has finally prevailed in the teddy bear scandal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher

[Pops In]

sorry to interrupt this delightful banter but...
I see common sense has finally prevailed in the teddy bear scandal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071203/ap_on_re_af/sudan_british_teacher
And that makes it less idiotic.

Yes, it's been on the news all day and portrayed by some as how nice and kind the Sudan government is.

[jitobear]

For the record, this is pretty much the most important thing you have said. It clearly shows you are a bigot and at this point and time I wont waste my breath arguing with someone who is a bigot.

I wont argue with Fred Phelps, I wont argue with someone of the KKK and I won't argue this subject with you. It's a waste of my time.

Fine. Don't then.

Never mind that I have stated that I hate no-one, begrudge no-one their faith, am aware aware that there are good people of all faiths and that I am aware that religion has done some good. Also, feel free to continue to ignore that religion's atrocities and my personal experience has given me reason to be disgusted in religion. Don't trouble yourself with the fact that between us I am the one who has provided explanation for my point of view and have even acknowledged the positives about religion (have you done the same about its negatives?). Never mind that it is you who has hurled insults about my character because my point of view and my experience with religion do not match your own. Yesir - I'm the intolerant one, I'm the bigot here.

[JPSartre12]

But your nest's got more nuts in it.

Why thank you. I guess it's because I am a more skillful hunter than you are. ;)

[JPSartre12]

And that makes it less idiotic.

Yes, it's been on the news all day and portrayed by some as how nice and kind the Sudan government is.

Yeah, they didn't lop off her head over a stupid teddy bear's name, so now they're great people. :howling:

[Pops In]

BBC NEWS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm)

Ibrahim Mogra from the Muslim Council of Britain told BBC News 24 that the whole saga had been very damaging for the image of the Muslim faith.
"Each time we have stories like these, that distort what Islam stands for or misrepresents what the compassion of Muslim law stands for, then we have repercussions and people begin to feel that Islam has no place in modern society...
Sounds very much like the Christian apologists here.

[JPSartre12]

BBC NEWS (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7124447.stm)

Sounds very much like the Christian apologists here.


For once, I'd just like the BBC to say that Islam is a fucked up religion and not apologize for its inherrent brutality.

[kingclick]

Fine. Don't then.

Never mind that I have stated that I hate no-one, begrudge no-one their faith, am aware aware that there are good people of all faiths and that I am aware that religion has done some good. Also, feel free to continue to ignore that religion's atrocities and my personal experience has given me reason to be disgusted in religion. Don't trouble yourself with the fact that between us I am the one who has provided explanation for my point of view and have even acknowledged the positives about religion (have you done the same about its negatives?). Never mind that it is you who has hurled insults about my character because my point of view and my experience with religion do not match your own. Yesir - I'm the intolerant one, I'm the bigot here.

Yes you are the bigot here. You base your view about an entire concept (religion) based on your backwards views and your own anecdotal experience.

That makes you a bigot.

[JPSartre12]

Yes you are the bigot here. You base your view about an entire concept (religion) based on your backwards views and your own anecdotal experience.

That makes you a bigot.

:trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy: :trophy:

[Pops In]

For once, I'd just like the BBC to say that Islam is a fucked up religion and not apologize for its inherrent brutality.BBC news has done no more than report the news, as per it's remit. Personally I would like it to say that religion is fucked up, but that's not it's function.

[jitobear]

Yes you are the bigot here. You base your view about an entire concept (religion) based on your backwards views and your own anecdotal experience.

What is backwards about acknowledging history? Are you saying that things like the inquisition, witch burnings, violent efforts to convert, the crusades, terrorism between Northern and Southern Ireland, centuries of war in the Middle East and 9/11 didn't happen?

And why would I not consider nearly 30 years of my personal life experience with religion in my opinion of religion? You sure as shit better not condemn me for that unless you can claim that your personal experience with religion has not influenced your opinion of it.

I have acknowledged that there good people in all faiths and that religion has done good - (but it just isn't enough for me to approve of it based on the negative side). You have yet to provide any reasoning for your point of view at all. All you have done is throw a fucking tantrum and call me names for not having the same point of view as you.

Furthermore I am raising my son with a gay man. Most religion pays insult to my family - why in the hell would I embrace something that for the most part does not embrace me or those I love? Maybe I should just start kicking around and insulting your family and then call you a bigot when you don't like me for it.

I don't like religion and I am bigot for it, yet many of the religious get their panties in a knot at being called a bigot when they use religion to justify actual prejudice (gays, heathens, other religions, etc.). Of course then its just your belief, your morality, your religion - so thats different.

I will tell you what - you and JP sure have hleped reinforce my point of view with this thread.

[JPSartre12]

What is backwards about acknowledging history? Are you saying that things like the inquisition, witch burnings, violent efforts to convert, the crusades, terrorism between Northern and Southern Ireland, centuries of war in the Middle East and 9/11 didn't happen?

And why would I not consider nearly 30 years of my personal life experience with religion in my opinion of religion? You sure as shit better not condemn me for that unless you can claim that your personal experience with religion has not influenced your opinion of it.

I have acknowledged that there good people in all faiths and that religion has done good - (but it just isn't enough for me to approve of it based on the negative side). You have yet to provide any reasoning for your point of view at all. All you have done is throw a fucking tantrum and call me names for not having the same point of view as you.

Furthermore I am raising my son with a gay man. Most religion pays insult to my family - why in the hell would I embrace something that for the most part does not embrace me or those I love? Maybe I should just start kicking around and insulting your family and then call you a bigot when you don't like me for it.

I don't like religion and I am bigot for it, yet many of the religious get their panties in a knot at being called a bigot when they use religion to justify actual prejudice (gays, heathens, other religions, etc.). Of course then its just your belief, your morality, your religion - so thats different.

I will tell you what - you and JP sure have hleped reinforce my point of view with this thread.

And you're holding me up as an example of a "good Christian"?! Remember what Mae West said. "I used to be Snow White....but I drifted."

Merry Christmas Jito. Now, go have some egg nog on me. :party:

[jitobear]

And you're holding me up as an example of a "good Christian"?! Remember what Mae West said. "I used to be Snow White....but I drifted."

Merry Christmas Jito. Now, go have some egg nog on me. :party:

I love Mae West. Her and Mark Twain have the best quotes. Happy Holidays, JP.

[kingclick]

What is backwards about acknowledging history? Are you saying that things like the inquisition, witch burnings, violent efforts to convert, the crusades, terrorism between Northern and Southern Ireland, centuries of war in the Middle East and 9/11 didn't happen?

And why would I not consider nearly 30 years of my personal life experience with religion in my opinion of religion? You sure as **** better not condemn me for that unless you can claim that your personal experience with religion has not influenced your opinion of it.Sure my experience with religion influences my MODERATE opinion of religion. I don't have a nazi-istic hateful reaction to it NOR do I have a rapturous positive view of it either. But the difference here is that I KNOW that my experiences with religion are just that, MY experiences and I have no logical right to judge the concept of religion based upon those experiences. Just as a woman who is robbed by a black man cannot blame the NAACP for her experiences nor "hate" the NAACP because that one black man robbed her. You seem to think it's fine to hate a group or concept based on personal experience with a small small small section of that concept.

I have acknowledged that there good people in all faiths and that religion has done goodYes, and that Racists at my work that tells "nigger" joke after nigger joke has a "best friend" who is black. - (but it just isn't enough for me to approve of it based on the negative side). You have yet to provide any reasoning for your point of view at all. All you have done is throw a ****ing tantrum and call me names for not having the same point of view as you.Of course YOU would see my many analogies that way because you are the one who is being the bigot.

Furthermore I am raising my son with a gay man. Most religion pays insult to my family - why in the hell would I embrace something that for the most part does not embrace me or those I love? Maybe I should just start kicking around and insulting your family and then call you a bigot when you don't like me for it.Sure, but if you start insulting my family then I will get your butt banned from here as quick as you can say "pass the yams". And as for your LYING implication that I have said ANYTHING about your family.........say the lie again and you will see me when I am really angry.

Of course it is. Your bigotry is based upon ignorance of facts. And the willful ignorance of painting an entire concept with the brush of a small group of instances.

[quote]I will tell you what - you and JP sure have hleped reinforce my point of view with this thread.Why? Because I CALLED you on your bigotry? That is pretty much par for the course for bigots. When challenged they just hunker down even further into their own ignorant world and try and blame others for their own shortcomings. Oh and even Jesus called the Pharisees "vipers and hypocrites".

Hopefully maybe since I had the balls to actually call you on your bigotry someday soon you will realize just what you are doing.

[jitobear]

Sure my experience with religion influences my MODERATE opinion of religion.

Oh really? Calling me a bigot for not sharing your point of view is moderate?

I don't have a nazi-istic hateful reaction to it NOR do I have a rapturous positive view of it either.

That makes two of us. Most of the time its really not my problem but when I read stories about Muslims locking up and even calling for the death of woman because she offended their religious sensibilities or how a 14 year old boy is dead for honoring a stupid religious rule I get angry and I have a little more to say about how religion pisses me off.

But the difference here is that I KNOW that my experiences with religion are just that, MY experiences and I have no logical right to judge the concept of religion based upon those experiences. Just as a woman who is robbed by a black man cannot blame the NAACP for her experiences nor "hate" the NAACP because that one black man robbed her. You seem to think it's fine to hate a group or concept based on personal experience with a small small small section of that concept.

My personal experience is only part of the picture. I also hate it because of a long, well-documented history of being a tool powerful enough to incite people to do ugly, ugly things. You keep minimizing and failing to address most of the reasons I have for hating religion.

Yes, and that Racists at my work that tells "nigger" joke after nigger joke has a "best friend" who is black. Of course YOU would see my many analogies that way because you are the one who is being the bigot.

Still haven't addressed this. I have provided reasoning for my point of view and all you have done is insult me and not provide any reason for yours. Those are the facts. If they are not, show me the post I missed. Also - quit implying I hate people.

Sure, but if you start insulting my family then I will get your butt banned from here as quick as you can say "pass the yams". And as for your LYING implication that I have said ANYTHING about your family.........say the lie again and you will see me when I am really angry.

That makes two of us for this is really pushing it. I did not and would not insult your family nor have I ever said that you insulted mine. This is a false accusation, something your religion supposedly frowns on. I said that most religions do not embrace my family as I am part of a gay family. I then tried to create an analogy that you would understand to show why I would not embrace something does not embrace me.

Your bigotry is based upon ignorance of facts. And the willful ignorance of painting an entire concept with the brush of a small group of instances.

First of all - I am not ignorant about the facts of my own life. Secondly - show how I am ignorant about any of the historical examples I provided? Prove to me how witch burnings, the crusades, "converting" heathens (i.e., natives in the Americas), the inquisition, age old battles in Ireland and the Middle East, 9/11 or current efforts to discriminate against gays in the US did not or are not happening or are not religious. Back up your accusation.

Why? Because I CALLED you on your bigotry?

No. And I am not a bigot.

That is pretty much par for the course for bigots. When challenged they just hunker down even further into their own ignorant world and try and blame others for their own shortcomings.

Oh - I take full responsibility for my point of view, I just see validation from time to time. I am also well aware its pretty inflexible. But I have my reasons. Even if I could over-look the history, I see examples of religion insulting my family every single day. I don't like it. It makes angry. I hate it. And from your threatening tone with me earlier in the post if I dared insult your family (something I would not do), I would think that maybe you could understand this.

And I would like to point out that I never said religion should be abolished, that no good has ever come of it, or that there was anything wrong with religious people. I never called you anything for being religious or embracing religion. I am not the one making insults or being intolerant so I fail to see how I am the bigot.

If my holding steadfast to the idea that religion is bad thing makes me a bigot, then you holding steadfast to the idea that it is not makes you one, too.

Oh and even Jesus called the Pharisees "vipers and hypocrites".

Come on - try some appropriate context. Jesus was condemning the leaders of his own faith, not non-believers.

Hopefully maybe since I had the balls to actually call you on your bigotry someday soon you will realize just what you are doing.

Likewise.

[Pops In]

Sure, but if you start insulting my family then I will get your butt banned from here as quick as you can say "pass the yams".
Leave out the disgusting provocation, king, it didn't work last time.

[kingclick]

Leave out the disgusting provocation, king, it didn't work last time.

You are a moron. The "provocation" is not mine, but hers. I was just letting her know the consequences if she went through with her threat.

[kingclick]

Oh really? Calling me a bigot for not sharing your point of view is moderate?Yes. Because moderates are for the truth and for addressing bigotry. Especially bigotry like yours. Hating something based on limited experience and rare examples.

That makes two of us. Most of the time its really not my problem but when I read stories about Muslims locking up and even calling for the death of woman because she offended their religious sensibilities or how a 14 year old boy is dead for honoring a stupid religious rule I get angry and I have a little more to say about how religion pisses me off.Bigotry in anger is still bigotry.

My personal experience is only part of the picture. I also hate it because of a long, well-documented history of being a tool powerful enough to incite people to do ugly, ugly things. You keep minimizing and failing to address most of the reasons I have for hating religion.Because the reasons you have for hating religion are minimal in the grand scheme of "religion" if all religion did the things you want to characterize religion with, you might be right, but the vast majority of religion isn't inciting "ugly ugly things". The vast majority is doing "good good" things. But instead just like the KKK in the south lynches a black guy for being black you lynch religion for the actions of a small fraction of followers. Bigotry.

Still haven't addressed this. I have provided reasoning for my point of view and all you have done is insult me and not provide any reason for yours.Either you are lying or are unable to actually read. I have stated numerous times why you are a bigot. You paint ALL religion with the brush handed you by a minority of the people involved in religion. If you can't comprehend that sentence then I am unable to help you. Those are the facts. If they are not, show me the post I missed. Also - quit implying I hate people.:howling: You are such a hypocrite! You keep saying that people who disagree with homosexuality are attacking your family, yet here you are saying that you "hate" religion yet that isn't supposed to be taken as an attack on people who are religious? Can't have it both ways.

That makes two of us for this is really pushing it. I did not and would not insult your familyYou threatened to. Dance all you want, the facts are there. nor have I ever said that you insulted mine. This is a false accusation, something your religion supposedly frowns on. I said that most religions do not embrace my family as I am part of a gay family. I then tried to create an analogy that you would understand to show why I would not embrace something does not embrace me.Your "analogy" was a threat. Maybe next time you don't want to make threats.

First of all - I am not ignorant about the facts of my own life.Yet again you think that YOUR life is actually something that you should base an opinion on of the myriads of religions out there. That is like saying I can make an informed opinion of what sharks are like based on going to Sea World. Secondly - show how I am ignorant about any of the historical examples I provided? Prove to me how witch burnings, the crusades, "converting" heathens (i.e., natives in the Americas), the inquisition, age old battles in Ireland and the Middle East, 9/11 or current efforts to discriminate against gays in the US did not or are not happening or are not religious. Back up your accusation.You are ignorant because you ONLY focus on the negative to formulate your opinion and dismiss the positive, the BILLIONS of positive examples of religion that completely outweigh the few nasty examples of HUMANS abusing their religions for power and selfish interests.

It's like if someone stabbed you, you would blame the knife instead of the actual person who stabbed you.

No. And I am not a bigot.I've already proven you are.

Oh - I take full responsibility for my point of view, I just see validation from time to time. I am also well aware its pretty inflexible.Thus you are a bigot. But I have my reasons.Poor reasons at BEST. Even if I could over-look the history, I see examples of religion insulting my family every single day. I don't like it. It makes angry. I hate it.LOL Irony. I see black people committing crimes every single day. Yet I don't paint all black people with that same brush. I see governments doing bad things every single day yet I don't hate the concept of government. I see educators doing nasty things every single day yet I don't hate the concept of education. Why? Because I'm not a bigot. And from your threatening tone with me earlier in the post if I dared insult your family (something I would not do), I would think that maybe you could understand this.Threatening? No. Informing you. A threat is something that might or might not happen. I was letting you know what WOULD happen if you tried to insult my family.

As for "understanding" this, no I don't understand your backwards way of looking at the world and taking everything that every group does on a PERSONAL level.

And I would like to point out that I never said religion should be abolished, that no good has ever come of it, or that there was anything wrong with religious people.Then what in the world does "hate" mean to you? Are you gonna try and redefine a word now to try and dance out of this one? I never called you anything for being religious or embracing religion. I am not the one making insults or being intolerant so I fail to see how I am the bigot.One more time. You are painting ALL religion with the brush given to you by a minority of religious followers. That is what makes you a bigot.

If my holding steadfast to the idea that religion is bad thing makes me a bigot, then you holding steadfast to the idea that it is not makes you one, too.Ah good try, but as I have already said numerous times, what makes you a bigot is not your tenacity to hold to a moronic stance but that you hold to a stance that is prejudiced and bigoted.

Come on - try some appropriate context. Jesus was condemning the leaders of his own faith, not non-believers.So? Jesus can have strong words for people doing wrong, thus it isn't "unchristian" to have strong words for bigots.

Likewise.:howling:

[JPSartre12]

:
Furthermore I am raising my son with a gay man. Most religion pays insult to my family - why in the hell would I embrace something that for the most part does not embrace me or those I love? Maybe I should just start kicking around and insulting your family and then call you a bigot when you don't like me for it.
And KC replied
Sure, but if you start insulting my family then I will get your butt banned from here as quick as you can say "pass the yams". And as for your LYING implication that I have said ANYTHING about your family.........say the lie again and you will see me when I am really angry.

I've known Jito for quite a while. While I do agree that she has a propensity to bash religion, she isn't inclined to insult people's families. She was speaking rhetorically. You took her statement and made it something that it wasn't.Since most religions teach that homosexuality is immoral and she is raising her son with a gay male, she feels that she has a bullseye painted on her family. It's understandable, IMO. Her statement about how you would feel if your family was attacked was an analogy, not meant to be taken literally.

[kingclick]

And KC replied


I've known Jito for quite a while. While I do agree that she has a propensity to bash religion, she isn't inclined to insult people's families. She was speaking rhetorically. You took her statement and made it something that it wasn't.Since most religions teach that homosexuality is immoral and she is raising her son with a gay male, she feels that she has a bullseye painted on her family. It's understandable, IMO. Her statement about how you would feel if your family was attacked was an analogy, not meant to be taken literally.

Problem is, she said that maybe she should specifically target "my family".

[Pops In]

You are a moron. The "provocation" is not mine, but hers. I was just letting her know the consequences if she went through with her threat.

Problem is, she said that maybe she should specifically target "my family".You pretend to take a hypothetical as a personal insult for the sake of provocation. We've seen it all before, king. Maybe your family are fucking stupid or saints if they have to put up with half the old bollocks you come out with in here.

[jitobear]

Yes. Because moderates are for the truth and for addressing bigotry. Especially bigotry like yours. Hating something based on limited experience and rare examples.

Watch the news that comes out of the Middle East. Thats not rare - thats every damned day.

Because the reasons you have for hating religion are minimal in the grand scheme of "religion" if all religion did the things you want to characterize religion with, you might be right, but the vast majority of religion isn't inciting "ugly ugly things". The vast majority is doing "good good" things. But instead just like the KKK in the south lynches a black guy for being black you lynch religion for the actions of a small fraction of followers. Bigotry.

First of all, I don't find religion's crimes to be minimal. Secondly - I would never advocate for and would fight against violence ever being visited against someone on the basis of their religion. However, two days ago, in another forum an extremely religious man told me how my son deserves to be beat for having a gay dad.

Either you are lying or are unable to actually read. I have stated numerous times why you are a bigot. You paint ALL religion with the brush handed you by a minority of the people involved in religion. If you can't comprehend that sentence then I am unable to help you.

You are not understanding what I am asking. I am asking for you to provide me with reasons why you think religion is a positive thing. And why those reasons are better than mine for thinking it isn't.

You are such a hypocrite! You keep saying that people who disagree with homosexuality are attacking your family, yet here you are saying that you "hate" religion yet that isn't supposed to be taken as an attack on people who are religious? Can't have it both ways.

I don't give a rats fuck if you disagree. Not my problem. You are entitled to whatever opinion you like. Hate me. Religion, however, does more than have an opinion - they support legislation that discriminates against gay families. They come on boards and make mildly threatening comments about my child.

I would never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever support such actions against the religious. Furthermore, I would fight it.

You threatened to. Dance all you want, the facts are there. Your "analogy" was a threat. Maybe next time you don't want to make threats.

No it wasn't. It was an attempt to get you to see things from my perspective. Sorry if you lack the skills to do that.

Yet again you think that YOUR life is actually something that you should base an opinion on of the myriads of religions out there. That is like saying I can make an informed opinion of what sharks are like based on going to Sea World. You are ignorant because you ONLY focus on the negative to formulate your opinion and dismiss the positive, the BILLIONS of positive examples of religion that completely outweigh the few nasty examples of HUMANS abusing their religions for power and selfish interests.

I am aware of the positives of religion. I have said this about a six times now. When are you going to address that its negatives, including the way it treats my family?

I've already proven you are.

Just because Kingclick says so doesn't make it so. Get over yourself. My world is quite diverse - I live in a black neighborhood, have a Mexican son who I am raising with a gay man, my best friends are Caribbean and East Indian, and I am close with Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Lutherans, Agonotics, and Atheists.

Thus you are a bigot. Poor reasons at BEST. LOL Irony. I see black people committing crimes every single day. Yet I don't paint all black people with that same brush.

Against you? Personally?

And once again - I am not condemning people - but an institution that is so powerful that it has incited some of the ugliest crimes against humanity in history.

I see governments doing bad things every single day yet I don't hate the concept of government.

Oh - I could - but how do we get around it?

Because I'm not a bigot.

Sure you are - just cause I said so. See how that works.

Threatening? No. Informing you. A threat is something that might or might not happen. I was letting you know what WOULD happen if you tried to insult my family.

I have no interest in insulting your family. I never would. Sadly, the same can not be said about religion when it comes to mine. And they aren't threatening to insult my family - they fucking do it ALL THE TIME. Yet I am out of line? Maybe you think your family is the only kind special enough to deserve defense against insult.

As for "understanding" this, no I don't understand your backwards way of looking at the world and taking everything that every group does on a PERSONAL level.

If a group was out there ensuring that all families with little boys in them were considered inferior, immoral and that they deserved lesser protection from are government or country than families without little boys - I suspect you would take it personally.

Then what in the world does "hate" mean to you? Are you gonna try and redefine a word now to try and dance out of this one? One more time. You are painting ALL religion with the brush given to you by a minority of religious followers. That is what makes you a bigot.

Religion is not a person. I also hate street gangs - I don't hate all the troubled kids who get tangled up in them. My cousin Bill hates liberalism - but he loves me.

Ah good try, but as I have already said numerous times, what makes you a bigot is not your tenacity to hold to a moronic stance but that you hold to a stance that is prejudiced and bigoted.

Definition of a bigot - is either a hatred of a group of people (which I do not have) or a bull-headed adhearance to a certain point of view. Now since I hate no-one, you must be referring to my adhearance to my point of view, yet you are equally strong in yours - so I guess that makes us a pair of bigots.

So? Jesus can have strong words for people doing wrong, thus it isn't "unchristian" to have strong words for bigots.

You are mis-using the example. He was condemning the pharisees for misusing their power and deliberately misinterpreting the word of God to his own people - when they were the leaders of their faith. I am an outsider - so the condemnation does not apply. Actually, Jesus supported respecting the outsider - the story of the Good Samaritan - how about the fact that you don't find him chewing out the Romans. (I have read the Bible by the way - all of it - took me 3 years or so.)

And actually - in one of the Pauline letters (forgot which) it does not endorse having strong words with the likes of me - but rather to leave me alone. (I can dig up the specific verse if you like.)

I've known Jito for quite a while. While I do agree that she has a propensity to bash religion, she isn't inclined to insult people's families. She was speaking rhetorically. You took her statement and made it something that it wasn't.Since most religions teach that homosexuality is immoral and she is raising her son with a gay male, she feels that she has a bullseye painted on her family. It's understandable, IMO. Her statement about how you would feel if your family was attacked was an analogy, not meant to be taken literally.

Thank you.

Problem is, she said that maybe she should specifically target "my family".

It was analogy. I had to make it personal for the analogy to work. Everybody seems to get that but you. You have been told by me more than once now. You have also been told by me more than once that I would never do this. Quit playing victim.

I use an analogy about insulting your family - which I clarify to you time and again is just analogy and yet you carry on with your super-defender against the evil bitch act. However - when religion goes about actually insulting my familiy every day and I get defensive I am a bigot.

Furthermore, I would fight any discrimination against your family on the basis of your religion. Would you on the basis that my son's dad is gay? Somehow I doubt it.

[JPSartre12]

You pretend to take a hypothetical as a personal insult for the sake of provocation. We've seen it all before, king. Maybe your family are fucking stupid or saints if they have to put up with half the old bollocks you come out with in here.


:agree:
It's not often that we agree. Let's keep it that way. ;)

[kingclick]

You pretend to take a hypothetical as a personal insult for the sake of provocation.I didn't take ANYTHING as a personal insult. I however did see a pretty clear THREAT to insult my family. And I don't take that lightly at all. Sorry you are too stupid to actually comprehend the difference between seeing an insult and seeing a threat to insult. We've seen it all before, king. Maybe your family are ****ing stupid or saints if they have to put up with half the old bollocks you come out with in here.

:howling: Oh the irony. And you wont even get a handslap for that.

[JPSartre12]

I didn't take ANYTHING as a personal insult. I however did see a pretty clear THREAT to insult my family. And I don't take that lightly at all. Sorry you are too stupid to actually comprehend the difference between seeing an insult and seeing a threat to insult.

A little short on your fuse there, King.

[kingclick]

Watch the news that comes out of the Middle East. Thats not rare - thats every damned day.Look at the BILLIONS of other religions that do good EVERY DAMNED DAY. But no, instead you choose ignorance and media hype.

First of all, I don't find religion's crimes to be minimal. Secondly - I would never advocate for and would fight against violence ever being visited against someone on the basis of their religion. However, two days ago, in another forum an extremely religious man told me how my son deserves to be beat for having a gay dad.Yep. And ALL religion does that. You just don't seem to have the brains to figure out that blaming an entire CONCEPT for the actions of a small small minority is bigotry.

You are not understanding what I am asking. No. You are not being clear in asking. I am asking for you to provide me with reasons why you think religion is a positive thing. And why those reasons are better than mine for thinking it isn't. Billions of people every day do GOOD in the name of religion and BECAUSE of religion. EVERY SINGLE DAY people donate time and effort to religious charities to help the homelss, hungry, sick and dying. If you think that a few wacko's in the middle east outwieghs that, then you are willfully ignorant.


I don't give a rats **** if you disagree. Not my problem. You are entitled to whatever opinion you like. Hate me. Religion, however, does more than have an opinion - they support legislation that discriminates against gay families. They come on boards and make mildly threatening comments about my child. I was pointing out YOUR hypocrisy. Good attempt at dodging though. They "very religious" person that you talked to, who made him the spokesperson for ALL religions? Right no one. Only your bigotry made him more important that he really is.

I would never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever support such actions against the religious. Furthermore, I would fight it.No one said you did. Need more straw for that strawman?

No it wasn't. It was an attempt to get you to see things from my perspective. Sorry if you lack the skills to do that.:howling: I lack the skills? No, it's you who lacks the skills of communicating clearly, well except when you want to communicate hatred. You are pretty clear on that one.

I am aware of the positives of religion. I have said this about a six times now. When are you going to address that its negatives, including the way it treats my family?Why should I address something that doesn't "define" religion? The actions of a few are just that, the actions of a few. I will not stoop to your level and be dumb enough to paint an entire concept by the actions of a minorty of people.

Just because Kingclick says so doesn't make it so. Get over yourself. My world is quite diverse - I live in a black neighborhood, have a Mexican son who I am raising with a gay man, my best friends are Caribbean and East Indian, and I am close with Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Lutherans, Agonotics, and Atheists. Classic response of racists is to say they have "black" friends. Doesn't change the fact you are a bigot.

Against you? Personally?Does it really matter? It doesn't change the impact of my statement. When I was a teen I was treated like crap by a number of black people EVERY SINGLE DAY. Does that give me a right to say that all black people are bad? No, and what happens to you on internet boards doesn't give you a right to paint all religion with the same brush.

And once again - I am not condemning people - but an institution that is so powerful that it has incited some of the ugliest crimes against humanity in history.You mean government? Right?

Oh - I could - but how do we get around it?You could go around ignorantly hating it too!

Sure you are - just cause I said so. See how that works.No, that doesn't work. What works is how I have proven that you are a bigot because you paint all religion with one brush based mostly on a small percentage of the actions of some religious.

I have no interest in insulting your family. I never would. Sadly, the same can not be said about religion when it comes to mine. And they aren't threatening to insult my family - they ****ing do it ALL THE TIME. Yet I am out of line? Maybe you think your family is the only kind special enough to deserve defense against insult.Your words show the dishonesty of your own thoughts. You say "I am not condemning people". Yet here you use the term "they" here and above you say.."they come on boards" "Religion as an institution" doesn't "come on boards". You need to clear your OWN mind and make sure you are even comprehending your OWN thoughts and feelings.

If a group was out there ensuring that all families with little boys in them were considered inferior, immoral and that they deserved lesser protection from are government or country than families without little boys - I suspect you would take it personally.No I wouldn't I would dismiss that "groups" view as moronic. However I wouldn't blame EVERY group for that small groups actions either. Because THEN I would be a bigot like you.

Religion is not a person. I also hate street gangs - I don't hate all the troubled kids who get tangled up in them. My cousin Bill hates liberalism - but he loves me. Yet you blame religion for the actions of a small minority of people. I guess you probably blame all soccer fans for the riots that happen occasionally in Europe too!

Definition of a bigot - is either a hatred of a group of people (which I do not have) or a bull-headed adhearance to a certain point of view. Now since I hate no-one, you must be referring to my adhearance to my point of view, yet you are equally strong in yours - so I guess that makes us a pair of bigots.No. Again you are wrong.

First definition under Dictionary.com for bigot.

–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

I think "hate" would qualify as utterly intolerant.


You are mis-using the example. He was condemning the pharisees for misusing their power and deliberately misinterpreting the word of God to his own people - when they were the leaders of their faith. I am an outsider - so the condemnation does not apply. Actually, Jesus supported respecting the outsider - the story of the Good Samaritan - how about the fact that you don't find him chewing out the Romans. (I have read the Bible by the way - all of it - took me 3 years or so.)

And actually - in one of the Pauline letters (forgot which) it does not endorse having strong words with the likes of me - but rather to leave me alone. (I can dig up the specific verse if you like.)Seriously? Sure. I would LOVE to see you present a detailed biblical stance showing that believers have to leave "outsiders" alone. You are a bigot. I'm not gonna just sit back and let you spew your bigotry willy nilly and then have you come up with some asinine reason why I shouldn't be addressing your bigotry.

It was analogy. I had to make it personal for the analogy to work.So not only are you a bigot you don't seem to have a poor grasp of how to communicate. You DON'T have to make something personal for an analogy to work. (but thanks for admitting that you were making it personal. You could have easily said. "I feel my family is attacked every day because of my son's gay adoptive father." You didn't need to threaten to attack my family to make the point. If you think that was the only way I guess I can only have pity for you. Everybody seems to get that but you. You have been told by me more than once now. You have also been told by me more than once that I would never do this."everybody" 3 people? You, Pops and a JP? That consitutes "everybody" well NOW I can understand why you hate "religion" when it's only a handful of bad instances compared to billions of instances of good happening every day because of religion. Quit playing victim.Serious irony. I wasn't playing the victim. If someone brandishes a knife and you pretty much put them in their place, that isn't playing the victim. (unlike someone who is SOOOO abused every day because she goes onto boards and has "very religious" people attack her.)

I use an analogy about insulting your family - which I clarify to you time and again is just analogy and yet you carry on with your super-defender against the evil bitch act.Because your "clarification" never admits you were wrong. Because your "clarification" blames me. Bzzzt.
However - when religion goes about actually insulting my familiy every day and I get defensive I am a bigot. Again you are a bigot because you blame the actions of a few on "religion".

Furthermore, I would fight any discrimination against your family on the basis of your religion. Would you on the basis that my son's dad is gay? Somehow I doubt it.Depends on what it is. If someone is saying that your SON should be harmed because his adoptive father is gay. I would fight it. If someone is saying that your Son's adoptive father doesn't deserve "special" recognition for his homosexuality, then no, I wouldn't fight it.

[kingclick]

A little short on your fuse there, King.The fuse was lit and fanned with

hate religion posted about a dozen times.

No comment. :innocent:Edited.

[JPSartre12]

The fuse was lit and fanned with
hate religion posted about a dozen times.
But you attempted to use a bazooka to kill a fly. A bit of overkill, IMO.

I had an epiphany WRT Pops. He's a prick.......but he's OUR prick. :bighug: ;)

[kingclick]

But you attempted to use a bazooka to kill a fly. A bit of overkill, IMO.


I had an epiphany WRT Pops. He's a prick.......but he's OUR prick. :bighug: ;)

No. My prick actually is still useful.

[JPSartre12]

No. My prick actually is still useful.
Since Pops is a wanker, I'm guessing his does too. ;)

[kingclick]

Since Pops is a wanker, I'm guessing his does too. ;)

Sorry. Can't continue with this. I already feel bad that I have even responded to his trolling.

I've taken back the worst of the posts.

[JPSartre12]

Sorry. Can't continue with this. I already feel bad that I have even responded to his trolling.

I've taken back the worst of the posts.

Is it time to hold hands and sing Kumbya yet? ;)

[jitobear]

Look at the BILLIONS of other religions that do good EVERY DAMNED DAY. But no, instead you choose ignorance and media hype.

There are not billions of religions - more like thousands.

No. You are not being clear in asking. Billions of people every day do GOOD in the name of religion and BECAUSE of religion. EVERY SINGLE DAY people donate time and effort to religious charities to help the homelss, hungry, sick and dying. If you think that a few wacko's in the middle east outwieghs that, then you are willfully ignorant.

I doubt billions do it every day. But yes, I know that religion inspires many to charity and gives many people strength and peace. It has also been very impactful in furthering education - especially the Catholic church.

But that does not forgive the fact that it is also the single most powerful force for inspiring people to do evil and that nearly every religion (or religion with political motivations - maybe I can fairly adjust my feelings to be focused them) works against my family.

I am also inspired to do good works - but its not by religion. Its by the value I see in everyone I meet. Even the Muslims, atheists, conservatives and queers. I find the value in their humanity - not their race or religion. And I don't let religion define their value for me.

Classic response of racists is to say they have "black" friends. Doesn't change the fact you are a bigot.

I am not a bigot - it is not my fault that you can't seem to distinguish between religion and a human being. I am done trying to explain that obvious difference to you. You will go to the bat for you and your family - I will do the same for my character. Call into question the sincerity of my feelings for the people in my life and I will return the favor - and thats not an analogy, thats a fucking promise.

You mean government? Right?
You could go around ignorantly hating it too!

Why? Its like hating a table. Its just - - there.

No, that doesn't work. What works is how I have proven that you are a bigot because you paint all religion with one brush based mostly on a small percentage of the actions of some religious.

No I don't. I simply don't forgive the negative history (that you continue to minimize) because of its good. Here's another analogy. Lets say a guy named Fred gave all his money to charity and helped a thousand children out of poverty but killed 5 children because they had a hairlip. I would hate that guy, too. The good does not forgive the damage. That is what I am saying. For you it does. Fine. But not for me.

–noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

I think "hate" would qualify as utterly intolerant.

Kind of like your utter intolerance about the point of view that religion is negative?

Seriously? Sure. I would LOVE to see you present a detailed biblical stance showing that believers have to leave "outsiders" alone.

Not outsiders. Christians are certainly commanded to spread the word. I am referring to the disinterested (me) - Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5.

If someone is saying that your Son's adoptive father doesn't deserve "special" recognition for his homosexuality, then no, I wouldn't fight it.

You mean the same rights you have? To have your family protected, and respected under the law in same country of which he is a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen, just like you? In the end that makes you someone else who is no ally to my family on the basis of religion. And you wonder why I hate it?

[JPSartre12]

There are not billions of religions - more like thousands.
Ever hear of hyperbole? ;)


I doubt billions do it every day. But yes, I know that religion inspires many to charity and gives many people strength and peace. It has also been very impactful in furthering education - especially the Catholic church.

See above comment

But that does not forgive the fact that it is also the single most powerful force for inspiring people to do evil and that nearly every religion (or religion with political motivations - maybe I can fairly adjust my feelings to be focused them) works against my family.
I disagree. The singlemost powerful force for inspiring people to do evil isn't religion. It's the antithesis of most religions, amorality.

I am also inspired to do good works - but its not by religion. Its by the value I see in everyone I meet. Even the Muslims, atheists, conservatives and queers. I find the value in their humanity - not their race or religion. And I don't let religion define their value for me.

A lot of what makes them "human" is their morality. And the biggest influence on most people's morality is religion. So, by association, one can reasonably conclude that people's humanity is influenced by their religion.

I am not a bigot - it is not my fault that you can't seem to distinguish between religion and a human being. I am done trying to explain that obvious difference to you. You will go to the bat for you and your family - I will do the same for my character. Call into question the sincerity of my feelings for the people in my life and I will return the favor - and thats not an analogy, thats a fucking promise.

Ouch........ Did I already wish you a Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday, etc.?

[jitobear]

Ever hear of hyperbole? ;)

Ok ok ok ok.

I disagree. The singlemost powerful force for inspiring people to do evil isn't religion. It's the antithesis of most religions, amorality.

I respectfully disagree. Nasty people are able to get good people to do horrible things using their faith - whether it be accusing your neighbor of witchcraft, traipsing them accross countries to war and/or converting others (against their will), rejecting life-saving medical attention or flying planes into office buildings. I would be willing to bet that a lot of people would never carry out such acts if they did not believe they were in God's good graces for doing so.

A lot of what makes them "human" is their morality. And the biggest influence on most people's morality is religion. So, by association, one can reasonably conclude that people's humanity is influenced by their religion.

I disagree - their humanity is there by default. But it influences their character, certainly, in both good and bad ways.

I also believe morality exists independently of religion even if your religion helps you define it. You and I have more in common than in disagreement when it comes to moral issues - we disagree on few things but I don't find you immoral and I don't believe you find me so - - and I have no use whatsoever for religion.

Ouch........ Did I already wish you a Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday, etc.?

Yes - you said you liked the snow.

[JPSartre12]

Ok ok ok ok.



I respectfully disagree. Nasty people are able to get good people to do horrible things using their faith - whether it be accusing your neighbor of witchcraft, traipsing them accross countries to war and/or converting others (against their will), rejecting life-saving medical attention or flying planes into office buildings. I would be willing to bet that a lot of people would never carry out such acts if they did not believe they were in God's good graces for doing so.

I disagree - their humanity is there by default. But it influences their character, certainly, in both good and bad ways.

I also believe morality exists independently of religion even if your religion helps you define it. You and I have more in common than in disagreement when it comes to moral issues - we disagree on few things but I don't find you immoral and I don't believe you find me so - - and I have no use whatsoever for religion.

Yes - you said you liked the snow.

You know, Jito. You get as fired up being called a bigot as I have in the past. For what it's worth, I don't believe that you're a bigot. You're just a person that has had bad experience WRT religion. I can understand that. I would just guard against painting all religions and religious people with the same, broad brush. I'm half-heathen, so we're not all that different. ;)

[jitobear]

You know, Jito. You get as fired up being called a bigot as I have in the past. For what it's worth, I don't believe that you're a bigot. You're just a person that has had bad experience WRT religion. I can understand that. I would just guard against painting all religions and religious people with the same, broad brush. I'm half-heathen, so we're not all that different. ;)

Half heathen! :sing:

I'm not not trying to piant them as anything so much - although I have probably failed at that, and I certainly don't have an issue with religious people, its more a feeling - I am expressing my feelings about religion because of the negative way its used. I hate religion like someone might hate brussel sprouts.

And I admit Kingclick has me angry - especially since I think its hypocritical. He has been no less rigid in his view point than I and he certainly has been more insulting. Also, based on what he said in Post #5 , if I had said "I hate Islam" he likely would not have said a word.

[kingclick]

There are not billions of religions - more like thousands.Typo.

I doubt billions do it every day. But yes, I know that religion inspires many to charity and gives many people strength and peace. It has also been very impactful in furthering education - especially the Catholic church.Well maybe you are confused.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

But that does not forgive the fact that it is also the single most powerful force for inspiring people to do evil and that nearly every religion (or religion with political motivations - maybe I can fairly adjust my feelings to be focused them) works against my family.Anecdotal at best. And really? Judaism works against your family? B'hai faith works against your family?

I am also inspired to do good works - but its not by religion. Its by the value I see in everyone I meet. Even the Muslims, atheists, conservatives and queers. I find the value in their humanity - not their race or religion. And I don't let religion define their value for me.So?

I am not a bigot - it is not my fault that you can't seem to distinguish between religion and a human being. I am done trying to explain that obvious difference to you. You will go to the bat for you and your family - I will do the same for my character. Call into question the sincerity of my feelings for the people in my life and I will return the favor - and thats not an analogy, thats a ****ing promise.Huh? I was discounting your statement because your "associations" don't prove you aren't a bigot. They have nothing to do with your particular type of bigotry. Just like a racist can have black friends.

Why? Its like hating a table. Its just - - there.Well if someone actually "hated" a table I would tell them to seek psychiatric help. Especially if they were "blaming" the table for abuses on their family!

No I don't. I simply don't forgive the negative history (that you continue to minimize) because of its good. Here's another analogy. Lets say a guy named Fred gave all his money to charity and helped a thousand children out of poverty but killed 5 children because they had a hairlip. I would hate that guy, too. The good does not forgive the damage. That is what I am saying. For you it does. Fine. But not for me.Because you are a bigot. Religion isn't ONE person. So when a person acts on their own volition you cannot blame religion, you must blame that one person. If I went out and killed my kids in the name of Allah, you couldn't blame Islam, you would have to blame me. Now if Islam's tenants TOLD me to kill my kids, that is a different story, but the tenants of most religions don't call for that kind of stuff.

Kind of like your utter intolerance about the point of view that religion is negative?No, I myself have experienced the negatives of some religions. I also know that many people are bad and do bad things in the name of religion, however, that doesn't mean that religion is "in general" hate worthy.


Not outsiders. Christians are certainly commanded to spread the word. I am referring to the disinterested (me) - Matthew 10:14, Mark 6:11, Luke 9:5. Am I attempting to "spread the word" to you? No. I am attempting to get you to not be so bigoted in your thinking. Or because I am a Christian I am not allowed to call bigots, on the carpet? No, I think you are attempting to twist these scriptures out of context and whack me with something you don't really comprehend.

You mean the same rights you have?No, I don't have any special rights. To have your family protected, and respected under the law in same country of which he is a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen, just like you? In the end that makes you someone else who is no ally to my family on the basis of religion. And you wonder why I hate it?I am no ally to your family because I don't support your attempt to seek special status that isn't deserved? We all have the same rights and access to those same rights. There is no need to give special rights to gays.

I guess I could take the same tack with you. I want the government to give me special status because of the smell of my feet! If you don't support me in my seeking special status you obviously are not an ally of mine!!!

[kingclick]

Half heathen! :sing:

I'm not not trying to piant them as anything so much - although I have probably failed at that, and I certainly don't have an issue with religious people, its more a feeling - I am expressing my feelings about religion because of the negative way its used. I hate religion like someone might hate brussel sprouts.So then you are just abusing the english language for hyperbolic reasons? Why didn't you just say so?

And I admit Kingclick has me angry - especially since I think its hypocritical. He has been no less rigid in his view point than I and he certainly has been more insulting. Also, based on what he said in Post #5 , if I had said "I hate Islam" he likely would not have said a word.That would be because it is a single religion. I problably would have not said a word because I am honestly not informed enough about Islam to support or refute that statement. But again you didn't say it about ONE religion you said it about all religions.

[JPSartre12]

Does anyone still remember the original topic of this thread? :headscrat
Oh yeah, Christmas tree decorations.

[Pops In]

Does anyone still remember the original topic of this thread? :headscrat
Oh yeah, Christmas tree decorations.No. A teddy bear. It got covered by bullshit.

[kingclick]

No. A teddy bear. It got covered by bullshit.

No, it's spelled with a i-g-o-t-r-y following the b.

[Pops In]

No, it's spelled with a i-g-o-t-r-y following the b.From more than one side, evidently.

[flygirl]

Does anyone still remember the original topic of this thread? :headscrat
Oh yeah, Christmas tree decorations.
Hey, don't blame me! I tried to get it back on track PAGES ago. I was scoffed at. ;) (and anyway, pops is right, it was a teddy bear named muhammed)

[JPSartre12]

Hey, don't blame me! I tried to get it back on track PAGES ago. I was scoffed at. ;) (and anyway, pops is right, it was a teddy bear named muhammed)

You're right, so that means even the OP wasn't on topic. I's called "Christmas Tree Decorations".;)

[jitobear]

Well maybe you are confused.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I don't question that billions have faith. I question that billions are doing acts of characity each and every single day. If that were true, we'd have a lot less problems and people in need in this world.

Anecdotal at best. And really? Judaism works against your family? B'hai faith works against your family?

Actually in the US, where I live, its primarliy Christians. Would you be OK if I said I hate Christianity? I doubt it - and I don't. I hate the concept of religion. Religion defines the divine - and the divine ends up mattering more than people - and although it can inspire people to do great good, it is also the single most powerful force to inspiring otherwise decent people to do awful things - and to justify them. Its also personal since most of Christianity pays insults to my family.

So?

It doesn't take religion to inspire good, or evil for that matter. It just, as that quote says, takes it to inspire the good to do evil.

Huh? I was discounting your statement because your "associations" don't prove you aren't a bigot. They have nothing to do with your particular type of bigotry. Just like a racist can have black friends.

No he can't. Find me a black person who would count a racist amongst his friends. Plus, you minimize the relationships - these are members of my own family, my closest friends. And you keep forgetting that RELIGION IS NOT A PERSON.

Because you are a bigot. Religion isn't ONE person.

Religion isn't any number of people - its an organizational construct.

So when a person acts on their own volition you cannot blame religion, you must blame that one person.

I do. And if their religion inspired and justified it - I hate that, too.

If I went out and killed my kids in the name of Allah, you couldn't blame Islam, you would have to blame me. Now if Islam's tenants TOLD me to kill my kids, that is a different story, but the tenants of most religions don't call for that kind of stuff.

Nice way to get out of hating Islam. The Bible call for the death of my son's father - can I hate Christianity, Islam and Judaism now?

No, I myself have experienced the negatives of some religions. I also know that many people are bad and do bad things in the name of religion, however, that doesn't mean that religion is "in general" hate worthy.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But its how I feel.

Am I attempting to "spread the word" to you? No. I am attempting to get you to not be so bigoted in your thinking. Or because I am a Christian I am not allowed to call bigots, on the carpet? No, I think you are attempting to twist these scriptures out of context and whack me with something you don't really comprehend.

I comprehend the scriptures just fine. I read the Bible cover to cover and spent half my life as a Christian. I was just pointing out that using a condemnation of Christ's - especially a condemnation of his own faith's leaders as a way to condemn me is ineffective since I don't care what Christ said. And that it is a tad silly to use the Bible to condemn me when I don't care about the Bible and the Bible even tells you not to bother with me since I don't care!

No, I don't have any special rights. I am no ally to your family because I don't support your attempt to seek special status that isn't deserved?

Your family gets to be protected, his does not - sounds like you have special rights to me.

We all have the same rights and access to those same rights. There is no need to give special rights to gays.

How do you figure? You get start a family with someone you love and have that family protected, they don't. I fail to see how they have access to the same rights as you.

I guess I could take the same tack with you. I want the government to give me special status because of the smell of my feet! If you don't support me in my seeking special status you obviously are not an ally of mine!!!

I don't think that you should have special status because of smelly feet. But if protections are only given to those with sweet smelling feet, then those with sweet smelling feet would be getting special rights.

Now, I know you are alluding to the fact that they can start a family with someone of the opposite gender, just like you did. But that is still just retaining a special privelege for you. You can start a family with someone you love, they can not. You can have protections for the family you created they can not. It is not the same rights that you have if they have to abandon their already existing partners/families, whom they love - to create a different one with someone they do not love so that they can fit the construct of family that your faith supports.

Lets say that there was a rule where spouses could only get legal recognition if there is at a least 2" difference in height between them. Now lets say, there is only a 1" difference height between you and your wife. Now your family no longer receives protection, you either have to live without it or go find a new wife of the appropriate height (and any children you have be damned). You have access to same protections as long as you find someone of the appropriate height - for you to expect that your current family be protected is asking for special rights.


That would be because it is a single religion. I problably would have not said a word because I am honestly not informed enough about Islam to support or refute that statement. But again you didn't say it about ONE religion you said it about all religions.

So? There are a lot of Muslims. They also do good works (see below). If you hate Islam, you must be a bigot. I mean - since there are good Muslims, they do good deads, and find peace in their faith - there is no reason to hold Islam accountable for the original topic in this thread or for the attacks on 9/11. Not reason to hate it at all. Based on your hateful #5 post - and by your own arguments against me - you are a bigot, too.

Examples of Islamic charities:
http://www.islamic-charity.com/
http://www.islamic-relief.com/
http://www.islamicaid.org.uk/
http://ramadan.muslimaid.org/

Islamic contirbutions to culture, education, science, art and law:
http://www.bluegrass.kctcs.edu/LCC/HIS/104/s99troy.html
http://ibexpub.com/index.php?main_page=pubs_product_book_info&products_id=61
www.sipa.columbia.edu/regional/mei/HANDOUT13.PDF
http://www.isocs.org/I101C/8_knowledge.htm

[kingclick]

From more than one side, evidently.From yours and Jito's side makes more than one side!

[kingclick]

I don't question that billions have faith. I question that billions are doing acts of characity each and every single day. If that were true, we'd have a lot less problems and people in need in this world.Everyday those people do kind things. Everyday those people donate to charities. Every day those people do things that aren't printed in newspapers or broadcast on TV.

Actually in the US, where I live, its primarliy Christians. Would you be OK if I said I hate Christianity?Actually I would understand it more since Christianity has specific tenants that you could hate and disagree with. However all religions have a plethora of views and tenants that for you to hate them all you would have to hate all that is good. I doubt it - and I don't.You are wrong AND, I doubt that you don't hate Christianity. I hate the concept of religion. Religion defines the divine - and the divine ends up mattering more than people - and although it can inspire people to do great good, it is also the single most powerful force to inspiring otherwise decent people to do awful things - and to justify them. Again this is false. The single most powerful force inspiring people to do awful things is power. Its also personal since most of Christianity pays insults to my family.Like I said, you do hate Christianity just don't want to admit it.


It doesn't take religion to inspire good, or evil for that matter. It just, as that quote says, takes it to inspire the good to do evil.And the quote is wrong.

No he can't. Find me a black person who would count a racist amongst his friends.Uh, do you want the guys names? Ever hear of not being "yourself" around certain people? He is a racist but has some black friends. Plus, you minimize the relationships - these are members of my own family, my closest friends. And you keep forgetting that RELIGION IS NOT A PERSON.Never forgot it once. However you seem to confuse the two often calling "religion" they and saying "they" come in to forums.


Religion isn't any number of people - its an organizational construct.Then why blame religion for the actions of a small number of people?


I do. And if their religion inspired and justified it - I hate that, too.Well then you don't hate any religions then, because they

Nice way to get out of hating Islam. The Bible call for the death of my son's father - can I hate Christianity, Islam and Judaism now?Again I don't know enough about Islam to say if they are that way now. However you can't blame Judaism or Christianity for things that are history and not current. Or do you still hate Germany for Nazi-ism? Or do you still hate America for Slavery? Or do you still hate America for not letting women vote? Be current. Heck if you lived during bible times I could give you a pass, like I give Flygirl.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But its how I feel.Then how you feel makes you a bigot.

I comprehend the scriptures just fine. I read the Bible cover to cover and spent half my life as a Christian. I was just pointing out that using a condemnation of Christ's - especially a condemnation of his own faith's leaders as a way to condemn me is ineffective since I don't care what Christ said. And that it is a tad silly to use the Bible to condemn me when I don't care about the Bible and the Bible even tells you not to bother with me since I don't care!Are you really that dumb? YOU said I shouldn't be calling you on this because I am a Christian. Thus I dispelled your statement by showing you that Christians CAN use strong language to handle people. I was NOT using the bible to condemn you. Please try and follow along and not twist the situation.

Your family gets to be protected, his does not - sounds like you have special rights to me.My family has the same rights as your family.

How do you figure? You get start a family with someone you love and have that family protected, they don't. I fail to see how they have access to the same rights as you.Make a new thread or read the 1000's that Matthew has created over the last months.

I don't think that you should have special status because of smelly feet. But if protections are only given to those with sweet smelling feet, then those with sweet smelling feet would be getting special rights.No the protections are already there for those with feet. The law doesn't recognize smell at all. So get over it!

Now, I know you are alluding to the fact that they can start a family with someone of the opposite gender, just like you did. But that is still just retaining a special privelege for you. You can start a family with someone you love, they can not. You can have protections for the family you created they can not. It is not the same rights that you have if they have to abandon their already existing partners/families, whom they love - to create a different one with someone they do not love so that they can fit the construct of family that your faith supports.Start a new thread because I am not going to discuss this one with you here.

Lets say that there was a rule where spouses could only get legal recognition if there is at a least 2" difference in height between them. Now lets say, there is only a 1" difference height between you and your wife. Now your family no longer receives protection, you either have to live without it or go find a new wife of the appropriate height (and any children you have be damned). You have access to same protections as long as you find someone of the appropriate height - for you to expect that your current family be protected is asking for special rights.Start a new thread.



So? There are a lot of Muslims. They also do good works (see below). If you hate Islam, you must be a bigot. I mean - since there are good Muslims, they do good deads, and find peace in their faith - there is no reason to hold Islam accountable for the original topic in this thread or for the attacks on 9/11. Not reason to hate it at all. Based on your hateful #5 post - and by your own arguments against me - you are a bigot, too.Really? Where did I say "I hate Islam"? Oh right I never said it like you said it. Why did I never say it? Because I don't. I don't hate it because I don't know enough about it.

However I CAN mock particular parts of Islam that I don't like. And one would be the moronic stance taken in the beginning of this thread. Jailing a woman for letting children name a teddy Muhammud?

That is pretty stupid. But that doesn't mean I hate Islam as a whole.

Examples of Islamic charities:
http://www.islamic-charity.com/
http://www.islamic-relief.com/
http://www.islamicaid.org.uk/
http://ramadan.muslimaid.org/

Islamic contirbutions to culture, education, science, art and law:
http://www.bluegrass.kctcs.edu/LCC/HIS/104/s99troy.html
http://ibexpub.com/index.php?main_page=pubs_product_book_info&products_id=61
www.sipa.columbia.edu/regional/mei/HANDOUT13.PDF
http://www.isocs.org/I101C/8_knowledge.htmMaybe you should read those links yourself, nice to see that you still hate religion inspite of all the evidence you provide!

[Pops In]

From yours and Jito's side makes more than one side!Oh come off your hypocritical high horse.

[flygirl]

OH, GOD! (and I say that rhetorically)
I get that click is a Christian. That's great. There are people who believe in Christ as our savior who do great evil, and people who believe in Christ our Savior, who do great good. There are people who believe 'ashes to ashes' is literal, and STILL do great good. Has great evil been done in the name of religion,? Unequivocally, yes. So has great goodness. Much learning was preserved and passed on to the people by clergy during the 'dark ages'
I do not believe that evil OR good can be attributed to religion, though I can see Jito's point with the country seemingly in the grip of the Christian right. (it's almost over, Jit, the pendulum has begun it's swing)
Click, you hang on to the 'special rights' phrase like a pitbull. Is it so hard for you to see that Matt, and Jit and one of my brothers, and..., asking for the same rights as you have with your mate is NOT asking for 'special' anything? Most of the time you seem like an intelligent enough guy. I really can't see how you can NOT understand this.
Click, watch a movie called 'The man from Earth' (any of the online movie sites). Very thought provoking. You would be 'Edith', played by Ellen Crawford.

[kingclick]

Sounds like it may just be an insult. So if it is, I would rather skip taking the time to watch a movie that is intended to insult me.

[flygirl]

Sounds like it may just be an insult. So if it is, I would rather skip taking the time to watch a movie that is intended to insult me.
It is not at all an insult. From the bottom of my heart, I would never insult anyone's faith. In my experience, faith is the strength, the comfort, and sometimes the confirmation of humanity. I must say, faith is eclectic. If I, personally, don't have faith that Jesus of nazareth has the power to forgive my sins and admit me to heaven, but I DO have faith that there is an intelligent design, and there is sentience after death, is my faith less valuable than yours? Any faith, religious, or humanist, that, at it's core, espouses the golden rule, and gives comfort to it's holder, is valid. And I don't care if the deity that accomplishes this is the great pumpkin. There has been MUCH discussion here, heated and mean, about whether or not religion is good or bad. It's VERY clear to me. It's not religion, or lack thereof, that's good or bad. It's the intolerance of faiths other than your own, and fear of your own belief system being challenged, that spawns bad acts. Intolerance, rigidity, closed minds. Watch the movie, KC. It's the fear part I was talking about, the having your belief systen pulled from under you. The woman character I compared you to kept her faith in the face of all proof to the contrary, hardly an insult. Other than that, it's just sort of a cool movie. You don't have to watch the film, the book, The Man from Earth' is even better. Author, Jerome Bixby.
It really wasn't an insult KC.

[JPSartre12]

I'm definitely not feeling the love in this thread.

[flygirl]

I'm definitely not feeling the love in this thread.
:bighug:

[kingclick]

It is not at all an insult. From the bottom of my heart, I would never insult anyone's faith. In my experience, faith is the strength, the comfort, and sometimes the confirmation of humanity. I must say, faith is eclectic. If I, personally, don't have faith that Jesus of nazareth has the power to forgive my sins and admit me to heaven, but I DO have faith that there is an intelligent design, and there is sentience after death, is my faith less valuable than yours? Any faith, religious, or humanist, that, at it's core, espouses the golden rule, and gives comfort to it's holder, is valid. And I don't care if the deity that accomplishes this is the great pumpkin. There has been MUCH discussion here, heated and mean, about whether or not religion is good or bad. It's VERY clear to me. It's not religion, or lack thereof, that's good or bad. It's the intolerance of faiths other than your own, and fear of your own belief system being challenged, that spawns bad acts. Intolerance, rigidity, closed minds. Watch the movie, KC. It's the fear part I was talking about, the having your belief systen pulled from under you. The woman character I compared you to kept her faith in the face of all proof to the contrary, hardly an insult. Other than that, it's just sort of a cool movie. You don't have to watch the film, the book, The Man from Earth' is even better. Author, Jerome Bixby.
It really wasn't an insult KC.

You can understand why I wouldn't want to go and pay to see a movie, spend 2 hours of my life on it and then find out it was just an insult you were wanting me to see.

The movie does seem interesting though.

[JPSartre12]

:bighug:

Thanks flygirl. I knew that SOMEBODY out there had a little Christmas love for me. ;)

[Pops In]

Thanks flygirl. I knew that SOMEBODY out there had a little Christmas love for me. ;)

:mykiss:

[JPSartre12]

:mykiss:

Sorry Pops. You're not my type. ;)

[jitobear]

I love you too JP. Even though your a conservative.

I think I shall be done with this thread, though. Kingclick will keep on thinking I am a bigot and I will keep on thinking he's thick and I know we are just getting boring to everyone else.

[flygirl]

I love you too JP. Even though your a conservative.

I think I shall be done with this thread, though. Kingclick will keep on thinking I am a bigot and I will keep on thinking he's thick and I know we are just getting boring to everyone else.
Don't feel bad, KC IS thick. The 'boring' part is right though.

[rachelturner0]

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[JPSartre12]

I love you too JP. Even though your a conservative.
Being a conservative just means that I'm careful with how I spread my love. ;)

I think I shall be done with this thread, though. Kingclick will keep on thinking I am a bigot and I will keep on thinking he's thick and I know we are just getting boring to everyone else.

Nah, hang around and shoot the shit with us. This thread's been off topic since Day 1. ;)

[Pops In]

Sorry Pops. You're not my type. ;):( Is it the whiskers?

[JPSartre12]

:( Is it the whiskers?

No, it's the location of the whiskers that's the problem. ;)

[Pops In]

No, it's the location of the whiskers that's the problem. ;)I'm not asking you to go down on me.

[kingclick]

Don't feel bad, KC IS thick. The 'boring' part is right though.How would you know? Have you been talking to my wife?

[JPSartre12]

I'm not asking you to go down on me.

Note to self: Don't trade barbs with a sick, degenerate old man. :innocent:

[kingclick]

Note to self: Don't trade barbs with a sick, degenerate old man. :innocent:

Good choice because people might think you were crazy for talking to yourself.