Padilla Images Show... Torture.

[Dragonfly]

MIAMI - Still video images of alleged terror operative Jose Padilla in chains and wearing headphones and blacked-out goggles demonstrate the harsh tactics used by U.S. interrogators while he was in military custody as an "enemy combatant," his lawyers said in court papers.

"The extended torture visited upon Mr. Padilla has left him damaged, both mentally and physically," Padilla lawyer Orlando do Campo said in one court filing. "The government's treatment of Mr. Padilla has robbed him of his personhood."

Padilla claims, among other things, that he was forced to stand in painful stress positions, given LSD or some other drug as a "truth serum," subjected to loud noises and noxious odors and forced to endure sleep deprivation, extreme heat and cold, and harsh lights.

The court filing includes an affidavit from Dr. Angela Hegarty, a New York psychiatrist who has met with Padilla for 22 hours over several days this year. Hegarty said that Padilla appears to suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome and is unable to adequately help prepare his legal defense.

"When approached by his attorneys, he begs them, 'please, please, please' not to have to discuss his case," Hegarty wrote. "He refuses to watch the videos of his interrogation and he refuses to answer questions pertaining to aspects of the evidence in his case."


Federal prosecutors and Pentagon officials have repeatedly denied that Padilla was tortured, contending in their own court filings that he was humanely treated and that the tactics used were for "safety and security" reasons.

Padilla, a 36-year-old former Chicago gang member, was declared an enemy combatant by President Bush in June 2002, shortly after he was arrested upon arrival at Chicago's O'Hare International Airport. U.S. authorities initially claimed he was on an al-Qaida mission to detonate a radioactive "dirty bomb" in a U.S. city.

OMG. Thoughts?

Link To Whole AP Story (http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2006/12/04/534188.html)

[kmhowe72]

omg

[ArcticPhoenix]

That's sickening. If this guy's claims are true, I am ashamed to be an American. Nobody should be treated like that. Try the guy and if he's guilty convict him and sentence him, don't torture him. That's not justice, that's revenge.

[Terrell]

That's sickening. If this guy's claims are true, I am ashamed to be an American. Nobody should be treated like that. Try the guy and if he's guilty convict him and sentence him, don't torture him. That's not justice, that's revenge.

Agreeing with AP, though I would add, if his claims are true, then the people who tortured him, need to face justice in our courts. Should it turn out that bush authorized the military to use torture, then he should be impeached, removed from office, permanently disqualified from holding office in the United States, and tried as a war criminal. (the same applies to anyone who was in the administration that ordered torture and should include ALL the bigwigs that had a say in it being ordered). The people who ordered or allowed the torture (both civilian and military) to be done have to be held accountable, just as the people who actually did the torture. If this is true.

Torture is wrong, always. It cannot be justified in any situation.

[Dragonfly]

Agreeing with AP, though I would add, if his claims are true, then the people who tortured him, need to face justice in our courts. Should it turn out that bush authorized the military to use torture, then he should be impeached, removed from office, permanently disqualified from holding office in the United States, and tried as a war criminal. (the same applies to anyone who was in the administration that ordered torture and should include ALL the bigwigs that had a say in it being ordered). The people who ordered or allowed the torture (both civilian and military) to be done have to be held accountable, just as the people who actually did the torture. If this is true.

Torture is wrong, always. It cannot be justified in any situation.

I agree! Good post ty.

[Peanut]

I'm all for sitting down with the suspected terrorists over a nice meal with wine (if applicable) or else over cake and coffee, and simply saying "Pretty please tell me your secrets."

I am definitely positive this tactic would get them to spill the beans. However, they would only spill the beans they were served for dinner, as they laughed so hard at our naivete.

[eva]

Agreeing with AP, though I would add, if his claims are true, then the people who tortured him, need to face justice in our courts. Should it turn out that bush authorized the military to use torture, then he should be impeached, removed from office, permanently disqualified from holding office in the United States, and tried as a war criminal. (the same applies to anyone who was in the administration that ordered torture and should include ALL the bigwigs that had a say in it being ordered). The people who ordered or allowed the torture (both civilian and military) to be done have to be held accountable, just as the people who actually did the torture. If this is true.

Torture is wrong, always. It cannot be justified in any situation.


Well, lookee there, Terrell and I agree. Allowance of torture is too open to abuse, if you ask me. I'm willing to give up some safety for morality. Particularly when you consider that if you can do it to others, it can be done to you. Allowing torture puts our soldiers, spies, and citizens at risk.

[Terrell]

I'm all for sitting down with the suspected terrorists over a nice meal with wine (if applicable) or else over cake and coffee, and simply saying "Pretty please tell me your secrets."

I am definitely positive this tactic would get them to spill the beans. However, they would only spill the beans they were served for dinner, as they laughed so hard at our naivete.

I didn't say give them a nice meal either, or treat them kindly (though I would say be humane in their imprisonment), I only said that they shouldn't be tortured. Also, exactly how do you know that any information you get through torture is accurate, and not them simply saying something they think will get you to stop?

As to terrorists who have been proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, in a fair trial, in a court of law (I consider the military tribunals as they're currently made as kangaroo courts, and illegitimate), I have no problem with them being given life without parole, or being executed as a punishment.

[Archangel]

Here are Chinese torture methods, not for terror suspects though, but for people seeking greater truth through religion. And to millions of people not just a few hundred who may have info that could save our Country from complete destruction.

www.faluninfo.net/torturemethods2/

[Archangel]

Here are some Russian Torture methods used against Chechens who are also Islamic Terrorists attempting to break away from Russian control in favor of Islamic rule.

Physical tortures

I will describe only the most typical methods of torture widely used in all concentration camps.

1. Electric shock torture
The majority of concentration camp prisoners have undergone this torture. Electrodes are fastened to the most sensitive parts of the body (genitals, ears, nose, back of the head, armpits)…

2. "Swallow" torture
This is one of the most widely-spread methods of torture. Legs and arms are tied together behind a person's back. A prisoner hangs head first and this continues for hours. This causes very strong or unbearable pain in joints. Afterwards, the victim feels pain in his or her joints for a long time, as if this happened yesterday.

3. "Respirator" torture
A prisoner is seated on a chair which is nailed to the floor. Hands and arms are tied under the chair with handcuffs. A respirator is put on his head and the respiratory tube is closed. A prisoner begins to suffocate because of the lack of air. He tries to take off the handcuffs and therefore seriously injures himself. … The prisoner feels a strong pressure in his head and feels as though his eyes have popped out. Gradually, the voices of the butchers advising you "to take a deep breath", and their laughter seem to move far away from you. You fly into an abyss of darkness. Then you wake up slowly and heavily. Some incoherent sounds become words. … Gradually, you understand that you have just died, visited the other world, but then again risen from the dead.

4. "Feeding" torture
Food and water is not given to prisoners for several days. Then victims' tongues are crushed to a bloody pulp using pliers. Victims are beaten with truncheons and forced to eat hot gruel with too much salt and pepper in it. The prisoners eat this food crying because of the terrible pain in their mouths. The sadists watch and enjoy this.

5. "Wolf canines" torture
A prisoner is tied to a chair. A piece of wood in the form of a bridle bit is put into his mouth. They saw the prisoner's teeth and, mock him, saying that they are sawing "wolf canines".

6. "Round table" torture
Prisoners in handcuffs sit face-to-face at a wooden table. The prisoners' tongues are nailed to the edge of the table. All the camp team watches this "show" and calls this torture the "Chechen round table".

Additionally, prisoners in concentration camps undergo more brutal torture: the traumatic amputation of fingers and other limbs, the putting out of eyes, breaking bones and people's spine, the lancing of stomachs and pulling out of intestines, the cutting out of tongues, ears and genitals, the destruction of livers, spleens and kidneys by striking precise blows.…

The most monstrous thing for me, as a doctor, is that Russian military doctors themselves often take part in this torture. There are many testimonies as to how the doctors use various manipulations to torture, maim and kill prisoners.

The most brutal torture, during or after which prisoners are killed, the Russian invaders themselves named "killing", i.e. these methods of torture, or executions, are used against those prisoners who, in the sadists' opinion, must not live.

[Signed] Doctor Umar Khanbiyev, Health Minister of the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria

BBC Monitoring Service - United Kingdom; Jul 27, 2001 (excerpts)
Original source: Kavkaz-Tsentr news agency web site in Russian 23 Jul 01
http://tchetchenieparis.free.fr/text/torture-23-7-01.htm

[Archangel]

And here is how Iran deals with enemies of the State. Not true criminals or Terrorists mind you, but Iranian citizens who believe differently than they would allow.
www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_12346.shtml

Tazir: the Islamic Torture in Iran
Jan 17, 2006
Bahman Aghai Diba PhD International Law - Persian Journal

Bahman Aghai Diba
Torture has close relationship with ideological zealotry. In the justice system of the Islamic Republic of Iran, a special word has been chosen to replace "Shekanjeh" (the Persian word for torture) which is the Arabic word of "Tazir". This is not a simple change of words. The initiative to put Tazir in the place of torture has serious and important implications for the judicial system and the people who go there.

The word is devised to clear the conscience of the interrogators, especially in the Islamic Revolutionary Courts, and their masters that clearly believe in all kinds of torture as an instrument of the administration of justice. The Mullahs and their lackeys can pretend, under the pretext of "Tazir", that they are not doing torture. All Iranian judicial officials claim that there is no torture in Iran (outright denial in one of the simple answers of the official of the Arabic-Islamic regime of Iran to many questions: Lajevardi, the Butcher of Evin, used to say there was no political prisoner. The melancholic president of Iran has recently said: we do not have nuclear crisis). However, they mean that there is no act called "torture" in the prisons and interrogation centers of the regime but if you ask them what about "Tazir", they say it is not torture, and it is the ruling of the judicial officials.

The reality is that there is not a civil justice system in Islamic-Arabic regime of Iran. The Islamic Revolutionary Courts (that look into all important issues, including all crimes against the security of the regime, major economic cases, cases related to the narcotic drugs and socials vices like drinking alcoholic beverages or having a party with the members of the opposite sex in any form) work according to the rulings of the Ayatollahs (called Fatwas and collected in books called Resalah), and the laws legitimated in the so-called Majles on the basis of the same rulings. It is useless to say something is ?law? in the Islamic Republic of Iran. If the violations of the human rights and denial of the fundamental rights are envisaged in the "laws" passed by the Majles, then what is the use of "the rule of law"?


The judges, according to the "law", have to be Mullahs only and they judge according to what they claim to be "the law" of Islam. When an interrogator wants to torture a person, especially the political ones, he goes to Mullah Judge (called Hakem-e Shariah) and asks him to give permission for let say inflicting 50 lashes to get confession from the suspects. If that works, it is the mission accomplished. If not, he can go back and get permission from the Mullah Judge for as many and as hard lashings that he likes.

While there is a great difference between a gentle stroke of the lash and the sever strike that gushes blood out of the body of the miserable subjects of torture, there is no criteria or system to administer or observe how the permission of the "Tazir" is implemented. The interrogators implement them as they wish. Sometimes the lashing, especially against women and young prisoners lead to sever injuries, damaging the internal organs and permanent loss of the physical functions. These are the MO for the Islamic Torture called Tazir in Iran. The interrogators never say that are involved in torture. Even a professional torturer like Assadollah Lajevardi, the Butcher of Evin, always spoke against the torture and condemned the judicial system of Shah in Iran and the judicial system of the other countries for having torture in their systems. His disciples that now rule the judicial system of Iran always use "Tazir" for getting confessions. They claim that they observe the constitutional law of Iran which forbids torture, and they only execute the religious orders of the Mullah judges for "Tazir".

[Peanut]

Agreeing with AP, though I would add, if his claims are true, then the people who tortured him, need to face justice in our courts. Should it turn out that bush authorized the military to use torture, then he should be impeached, removed from office, permanently disqualified from holding office in the United States, and tried as a war criminal. (the same applies to anyone who was in the administration that ordered torture and should include ALL the bigwigs that had a say in it being ordered). The people who ordered or allowed the torture (both civilian and military) to be done have to be held accountable, just as the people who actually did the torture. If this is true.

Torture is wrong, always. It cannot be justified in any situation.

Chances are "bush" knew nothing about this. Look less high up on along the chain of command. Somewhere between the folks in riot gear and "bush" will be your culprit.

Has no one else here ever read the Geneva Convention? I'll bump a semi-related thread from a while back for you...

[Pops In]

Chances are "bush" knew nothing about this. Look less high up on along the chain of command. Somewhere between the folks in riot gear and "bush" will be your culprit.

Has no one else here ever read the Geneva Convention? I'll bump a semi-related thread from a while back for you...Chances are Bush knows nothing much about anything, but where does the buck stop?

[Pops In]

What's Ali saying? Our repulsive actions are no worse than other's? Aren't you ashamed that torture has been done in the name of our nations?

[Archangel]

What's Ali saying? Our repulsive actions are no worse than other's? Aren't you ashamed that torture has been done in the name of our nations?

Just adding some balance for perspective Pops. Those same people who demand that we show mercy and tolerance for terrorists show no such mercy for their own civilian populations. That's all I'm pointing out. We are the most humane Nation on Earth to our citizens, yet we recieve the harshest criticism.

[Pops In]

Just adding some balance for perspective Pops. Those same people who demand that we show mercy and tolerance for terrorists show no such mercy for their own civilian populations. That's all I'm pointing out. We are the most humane Nation on Earth to our citizens, yet we recieve the harshest criticism.No. You're just saying we are no better. Well we bloody well should be. You can't claim to be the most humane and at the same time condone these vile atrocities.

Aren't you ashamed that torture has been done in the name of our nations?

[Pops In]

You cannot defend your own sins by saying others sin. You must condemn all sin. Isn't that the Christian way?

[Terrell]

Chances are "bush" knew nothing about this. Look less high up on along the chain of command. Somewhere between the folks in riot gear and "bush" will be your culprit.

Has no one else here ever read the Geneva Convention? I'll bump a semi-related thread from a while back for you...

Have you heard none of the news with respect to the bush administration endorsing torture? Have you heard about the torture memo scandal? Did you hear about the administration's opposition to Congress passing another law to expressly forbid torture? John McCain, and Lindsey Graham were two Rs who expressed opposition to the bush administration on the issue of torture (McCain has good reason being a former POW from the Vietnam war where he personally was on the receiving end of torture) Have you heard the administration's assertations that the people we capture in the War on Terror aren't protected under the Geneva Conventions? Even if they weren't it's against Federal law to torture people.

Bush Administration Lawyers Greenlight Torture (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/06/07/usdom8778.htm)

U.S.: Did President Bush Order Torture? (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/21/usint9925.htm)

Legalizing Torture (this one requires an account to view, I think it's free) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A26602-2004Jun8.html)

Outsourcing Torture (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050214fa_fact6?050214fa_fact6)

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION TORTURE MEMO SCANDAL (http://www.texscience.org/reform/torture/)

Some Kind of Manly Bush administration, dead to morality, says torture is the American way by Molly Ivins
(http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1110-20.htm)

The Bush administration's approach to torture beggars belief (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5139141)

Those are just a few links on the administration's backing of torture, it's not just a few rogue soldiers, this rot goes all the way to the top. Torture is unacceptable morally, and legally, in addition it simply doesn't work if your goal is to extract accurate information. You have no way of knowing that any information that you get from torturing prisoners is accurate, or just the prisoner saying what he thinks will get you to stop.

[Archangel]

No. You're just saying we are no better. Well we bloody well should be. You can't claim to be the most humane and at the same time condone these vile atrocities.

Dont tell me what I was saying Pops when I clearly said what I meant to say, nkaaaay ?

[QUOTE=Pops In;335076]You cannot defend your own sins by saying others sin. You must condemn all sin. Isn't that the Christian way?

Yes, all personal sin is equal to God. But War is a Government issue promoted for the protection of the citizenry. You can't hold a Government to the same rules that you hold individuals to. That's why we punish the perpetraters of torture in this Country but have never, untill now anyway, held the Government responsible.

The links I posted show clearly how other major Countries show no such respect for their own CITIZENS but you still find it necessary to complain about the US as if we are the great satan. You sound more like an islamofascist than a free man Pops. And your perspective is about as balanced as the true America hater that you are. Read the links I posted and then tell me honestly if you would feel safer living in China, Russia, Iran or America. Especially if you decide to disagree with one of those Governments as you so boldly disagree with yours and mine.

[Raven]

Well, lookee there, Terrell and I agree. Allowance of torture is too open to abuse, if you ask me. I'm willing to give up some safety for morality. Particularly when you consider that if you can do it to others, it can be done to you. Allowing torture puts our soldiers, spies, and citizens at risk.

yep!! REALLY well said, too, Eva! :trophy: :trophy:

[Raven]

The links I posted show clearly how other major Countries show no such respect for their own CITIZENS but you still find it necessary to complain about the US as if we are the great satan. You sound more like an islamofascist than a free man Pops. And your perspective is about as balanced as the true America hater that you are. Read the links I posted and then tell me honestly if you would feel safer living in China, Russia, Iran or America. Especially if you decide to disagree with one of those Governments as you so boldly disagree with yours and mine.

so you ARE saying that we should torture so long as it is a little bit less torture than everyone else.

No one here said anything about living in Iran or anywhere else. Trying to turn this into *that* kind of argument is nonsense. Moreover, NO ONE here is an "America hater" except the person who thinks America TORTURING people is a good thing.

[Pops In]

Dont tell me what I was saying Pops when I clearly said what I meant to say, nkaaaay ?

[quote=Pops In;335076]You cannot defend your own sins by saying others sin. You must condemn all sin. Isn't that the Christian way?

Yes, all personal sin is equal to God. But War is a Government issue promoted for the protection of the citizenry. You can't hold a Government to the same rules that you hold individuals to. That's why we punish the perpetraters of torture in this Country but have never, untill now anyway, held the Government responsible.

The links I posted show clearly how other major Countries show no such respect for their own CITIZENS but you still find it necessary to complain about the US as if we are the great satan. You sound more like an islamofascist than a free man Pops. And your perspective is about as balanced as the true America hater that you are. Read the links I posted and then tell me honestly if you would feel safer living in China, Russia, Iran or America. Especially if you decide to disagree with one of those Governments as you so boldly disagree with yours and mine.It's quite plain what you were saying, and are still saying. That is you have no qualms that our troops, our secret services... are torturing with the approval of our governments. That other nations do it is deplorable, but that it is ocurring in our name is the more deplorable. To support it is more akin to "Islamofascists".

[Archangel]

so you ARE saying that we should torture so long as it is a little bit less torture than everyone else.

No one here said anything about living in Iran or anywhere else. Trying to turn this into *that* kind of argument is nonsense. Moreover, NO ONE here is an "America hater" except the person who thinks America TORTURING people is a good thing.

I can raise any issues I want in order to make my point and to bring a balanced perspective into this debate. If you dont like it, dont participate or respond. I for one would love that. :)

[quote=Archangel;335082]Dont tell me what I was saying Pops when I clearly said what I meant to say, nkaaaay ?

It's quite plain what you were saying, and are still saying. That is you have no qualms that our troops, our secret services... are torturing with the approval of our governments. That other nations do it is deplorable, but that it is ocurring in our name is the more deplorable. To support it is more akin to "Islamofascists".

As HC would say Pops, man are you projecting. On another recent debate you questioned my loyalty to my Country. Well here we are again with another fine example of me not agreeing with certain tactics but unwilling to defame and condemn my Country when I know full well the enemy we face does much worse than we do on every level of performance.

Your problem is you have no balance or objectivity in your perspective. WE ARE AT WAR WITH AN ENEMY THAT HAS NO RESPECT WHAT SO EVER FOR ANY HUMAN LIFE, BE IT JEW, GENTILE OR MOSLEM. Try and rap that FACT around your brain and you'll realise we are the good guys here. I never said we were perfect or even always right, but on balance we are the rightous side and I will always reject your ignorant condemnations of our side.

And as you ring your hands in anguish over the hundreds of dead civilians each week in Iraq, realise it's the very islamofascists you defend in these debates as you condemn us for being there who are killing those people. Perspective and objectivity Pops, if I could just get you to consider the true facts we wouldn't have anything to argue about. But as long as you argue to appease an enemy who is determined to destroy our way of life, an enemy who makes no attempt for real peace with us, an enemy who's reward is in another World and killing us determines his wealth there. As long as you take that side of this debate then surely we will be on opposing sides of this issue because I will never compromise with evil in order to secure peace for myself, because that kind of a peace inevitably results in slavery and bondage which is proven by just observing every society on Earth today that has submitted the masses to the ruthlesness of a totalitarian regime and a dictator. You can have that peace Pops, I want nothing to do with it.

[Pops In]

[]I can raise any issues I want in order to make my point and to bring a balanced perspective into this debate. If you dont like it, dont participate or respond. I for one would love that. :)



As HC would say Pops, man are you projecting. On another recent debate you questioned my loyalty to my Country. Well here we are again with another fine example of me not agreeing with certain tactics but unwilling to defame and condemn my Country when I know full well the enemy we face does much worse than we do on every level of performance.

Your problem is you have no balance or objectivity in your perspective. WE ARE AT WAR WITH AN ENEMY THAT HAS NO RESPECT WHAT SO EVER FOR ANY HUMAN LIFE, BE IT JEW, GENTILE OR MOSLEM. Try and rap that FACT around your brain and you'll realise we are the good guys here. I never said we were perfect or even always right, but on balance we are the rightous side and I will always reject your ignorant condemnations of our side.

And as you ring your hands in anguish over the hundreds of dead civilians each week in Iraq, realise it's the very islamofascists you defend in these debates as you condemn us for being there who are killing those people. Perspective and objectivity Pops, if I could just get you to consider the true facts we wouldn't have anything to argue about. But as long as you argue to appease an enemy who is determined to destroy our way of life, an enemy who makes no attempt for real peace with us, an enemy who's reward is in another World and killing us determines his wealth there. As long as you take that side of this debate then surely we will be on opposing sides of this issue because I will never compromise with evil in order to secure peace for myself, because that kind of a peace inevitably results in slavery and bondage which is proven by just observing every society on Earth today that has submitted the masses to the ruthlesness of a totalitarian regime and a dictator. You can have that peace Pops, I want nothing to do with it.To ask if you favour your religion over your country is, as was pointed out, not questioning your loyalty to either.

That we torture less than "they" does not excuse us. And to condone and seemingly encourage it as you do is as reprehensible as any savage that slices off heads.

[Raven]

[QUOTE=Archangel;335104]I can raise any issues I want in order to make my point and to bring a balanced perspective into this debate. If you dont like it, dont participate or respond. I for one would love that. :)

did I say that you can't spout nonsense and show yourself to be a supporter of torture? No I did not. But respond I will, because you are most definitely not *balanced* :P

boy oh boy... that was quite a personal tirade attack against Pops, too. Gonna whine when one of us hands your ass back to you as usual?

[Raven]

That we torture less than "they" does not excuse us. And to condone and seemingly encourage it... is as reprehensible as any savage that slices off heads.

VERY well said! :trophy: :trophy:

[Archangel]

Here is every post I've made on this thread except the first 3 with links. Just to point out how you and ravin must lie and twist what I say to imply that I'm promoting torture. It's a waste of my time to debate with those who must decieve and slander in order to feel like they've won something. So lie all you want, my posts are here and they express what I mean just fine and I stand by them. And your posts clearly show who you defend and support also, that too is very obvious.

Just adding some balance for perspective Pops. Those same people who demand that we show mercy and tolerance for terrorists show no such mercy for their own civilian populations. That's all I'm pointing out. We are the most humane Nation on Earth to our citizens, yet we recieve the harshest criticism.

You cannot defend your own sins by saying others sin. You must condemn all sin. Isn't that the Christian way?

Yes, all personal sin is equal to God. But War is a Government issue promoted for the protection of the citizenry. You can't hold a Government to the same rules that you hold individuals to. That's why we punish the perpetraters of torture in this Country but have never, untill now anyway, held the Government responsible.

The links I posted show clearly how other major Countries show no such respect for their own CITIZENS but you still find it necessary to complain about the US as if we are the great satan. You sound more like an islamofascist than a free man Pops. And your perspective is about as balanced as the true America hater that you are. Read the links I posted and then tell me honestly if you would feel safer living in China, Russia, Iran or America. Especially if you decide to disagree with one of those Governments as you so boldly disagree with yours and mine.

As HC would say Pops, man are you projecting. On another recent debate you questioned my loyalty to my Country. Well here we are again with another fine example of me not agreeing with certain tactics but unwilling to defame and condemn my Country when I know full well the enemy we face does much worse than we do on every level of performance.

Your problem is you have no balance or objectivity in your perspective. WE ARE AT WAR WITH AN ENEMY THAT HAS NO RESPECT WHAT SO EVER FOR ANY HUMAN LIFE, BE IT JEW, GENTILE OR MOSLEM. Try and rap that FACT around your brain and you'll realise we are the good guys here. I never said we were perfect or even always right, but on balance we are the rightous side and I will always reject your ignorant condemnations of our side.

And as you ring your hands in anguish over the hundreds of dead civilians each week in Iraq, realise it's the very islamofascists you defend in these debates as you condemn us for being there who are killing those people. Perspective and objectivity Pops, if I could just get you to consider the true facts we wouldn't have anything to argue about. But as long as you argue to appease an enemy who is determined to destroy our way of life, an enemy who makes no attempt for real peace with us, an enemy who's reward is in another World and killing us determines his wealth there. As long as you take that side of this debate then surely we will be on opposing sides of this issue because I will never compromise with evil in order to secure peace for myself, because that kind of a peace inevitably results in slavery and bondage which is proven by just observing every society on Earth today that has submitted the masses to the ruthlesness of a totalitarian regime and a dictator. You can have that peace Pops, I want nothing to do with it.

[Raven]

ROFL!!!

thanks for proving that it is YOU who posts nothing but lies and shit against others :lol: thanks for the cut and pastes to prove it

[Archangel]

ROFL!!!

thanks for proving that it is YOU who posts nothing but lies and shit against others :lol: thanks for the cut and pastes to prove it

Another lie. That was no cut and paste but every word I said to Pops in each post. Post #15, 19, and 23. check em out.

[Raven]

Another lie. That was no cut and paste but every word I said to Pops in each post. Post #15, 19, and 23. check em out.


I didn't say that you edited your posts, only that you C&P'd them. In other words, used either the 'cut' or the 'copy' feature on your computer to copy them from their original spot and past them into a new post.

now once again, did you have ANYTHING to post on topic?

on second thought... don't bother. trying to converse with you about anything at all is like talking to a rock.

Actually, I think the rock is more interesting.

buh bye

[ArcticPhoenix]

America should hold itself to higher standards than any other nation in the world. This war, this torture, this... this... defilement of the very foundations of our nation should neither go unpunished, nor should they be forgotten. This whole war in Iraq has been a black stain on America's already tarnished reputation, and will take a long time to come clean.

I don't care what "other countries" do. If other countries jumped into the Arctic Ocean, that doesn't mean we should do the same thing.

We should be held to higher standards than that of other countries because of what we claim to be. I am proud to be an American, but I am ashamed of our Government's current administration.

[Raven]

America should hold itself to higher standards than any other nation in the world. This war, this torture, this... this... defilement of the very foundations of our nation should neither go unpunished, nor should they be forgotten. This whole war in Iraq has been a black stain on America's already tarnished reputation, and will take a long time to come clean.

I don't care what "other countries" do. If other countries jumped into the Arctic Ocean, that doesn't mean we should do the same thing.

We should be held to higher standards than that of other countries because of what we claim to be. I am proud to be an American, but I am ashamed of our Government's current administration.

:lol: I do agree with you 100%, but the bolded cracked me up... such a *parent* way of putting it :D ;)

what is amazing to me is that the same person (such as Bush) can simultaneously insist that this country is on such high moral ground as to presume we can invade other countries to spread *democracy* and take out a leader because we say he is guilty of torturing/killing people... while we are torturing and killing people.

I don't think being appalled by that sort of hypocrisy being done in our names is *hatred* for the USA (or the UK) at all. Quite the opposite, it is FAR more "love for country" to expect it to live up to its own stated ideals

[Pops In]

I don't care what "other countries" do.Well I do care what other countries do, and especially what terrorists do to us, whether Muslims, Irish Christians whatever. But that's beside the point. Decency and law apply to all of us. Not even America, the leader of the free world, should be exempt.

EDIT: Does that make sense? It's been a long night.

[ArcticPhoenix]

Well I do care what other countries do, and especially what terrorists do to us, whether Muslims, Irish Christians whatever. But that's beside the point. Decency and law apply to all of us. Not even America, the leader of the free world, should be exempt. No, that doesn't make sense. :P

My point was that just because another country does something, doesn't mean it's a good idea for all countries to do the same thing. Now go back to bed, your pillow misses you! ;)

[Raven]

Well I do care what other countries do, and especially what terrorists do to us, whether Muslims, Irish Christians whatever. But that's beside the point. Decency and law apply to all of us. Not even America, the leader of the free world, should be exempt.

EDIT: Does that make sense? It's been a long night.

yes, you are making sense and I agree :)

And as you note, it's not that we don't care what other countries, its that what they do does not give us license to do the same, nor excuse our behavior because some other country does it *worse*, kwim?

[ArcticPhoenix]

And as you note, it's not that we don't care what other countries, its that what they do does not give us license to do the same, nor excuse our behavior because some other country does it *worse*, kwim? Yeah... that... that's what I said. Just.. .not in so many words and not quite as clearly. :lol: