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Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 05:37 PM
Mix of Quake Aid and Preaching Stirs Concern
By DAVID ROHDE

Published: January 22, 2005


ORAKETIYA, Sri Lanka, Jan. 19 -A dozen Americans walked into a relief camp here, showering bereft parents and traumatized children with gifts, attention and affection. They also quietly offered camp residents something else: Jesus.

The Americans, who all come from one church in Texas, have staged plays detailing the life of Jesus and had children draw pictures of him, camp residents said. They have told parents who lost children that they should still believe in God, and held group prayers where they tried to heal a partly paralyzed man and a deaf 12year-old girl.

The attempts at proselytizing are angering local Christian leaders, who worry that they could provoke a violent backlash against Christians in Sri Lanka, a predominantly Buddhist country that is already a religious tinderbox.

Last year, Buddhist hard-liners attacked the offices of the World Vision Christian aid group and vandalized or threatened churches and pastors 75 times. They accuse Christians of using money and social programs to cajole and coerce conversions.

Most American groups, including those affiliated with religious organizations, strictly avoid mixing aid and missionary work. But scattered reports of proselytizing in Sri Lanka; Indonesia, which is predominantly Muslim; and India, with large Hindu and Muslim populations, are arousing concerns that the good will spread by the American relief efforts may be undermined by resentment.

The Rev. Sarangika Fernando, a local Methodist minister, witnessed one of the prayer sessions in Sri Lanka and accused the Americans of acting unethically with traumatized people. "They said, 'In the name of Jesus, she must be cured!' " he said. "As a priest, I was really upset."

The Americans in Sri Lanka belong to the Antioch Community Church, an evangelical church based in Waco, Tex. Two members of the church were arrested, and accused of proselytizing, by the Taliban in Afghanistan in August 2001. When the United States invaded the country several months later, pro-American Northern Alliance forces freed the women, who church officials say did speak with Afghans about their personal "relationship with Jesus."

The Antioch Community Church is one of a growing number of evangelical groups that believe in mixing aidgiving with discussing religion, an approach that older, more established Christian aid groups like Catholic Relief Services call unethical.

In Sri Lanka, alarmed local Christian leaders say proselytizing at such a sensitive time could reverse the grass-roots interfaith cooperation that has emerged since the tsunami and endanger Christians, who make up 7 percent of the population. The country also has sizable Hindu and Muslim minorities.

The Rev. Duleep Fernando, a Methodist minister based in Colombo, the capital, brought the Americans to the camp here. Mr. Fernando said they had described themselves as humanitarian aid workers. He and other Sri Lankan Christian leaders say raising religion with traumatized refugees is unethical.

"We have told them this is not right, but now we don't have any control over them," said Mr. Fernando, who called the group's Web site postings "unnecessarily explosive."

"This is a dangerous situation," he said.

In Indonesia last week, reports that a missionary group named WorldHelp planned to raise 300 Muslim tsunami orphans in a Christian children's home in Jakarta brought an outcry from Muslims. The group later said it had never had custody of the children.

Sri Lankan refugees, camp administrators and church officials said the Americans here had identified themselves only as a humanitarian aid group. In an interview here on Wednesday, Pat Murphy, 49, a leader of the team, said the group was a nongovernmental organization, and not a church group. "It's an NGO," Mr. Murphy said. "Just your plain vanilla NGO that does aid work."

But the church's Web site says the Americans are one of four teams - for a total of 75 people - dispatched to Sri Lanka and Indonesia who have persuaded dozens of people to "come to Christ."

of Quake Aid and Preaching Stirs Concern

Published: January 22, 2005



(Page 2 of 2)



When the group's postings were read to Mr. Murphy, he confirmed that the Americans were from the Antioch Community Church, but said the group would never use relief goods and gifts to entice or pressure people into becoming Christians. He denied that the team, which sent about half its 24 members to work in the eastern town of Kalmunai, was trying to convert people. The church has 2,000 members.

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"We simply provide people with information," he said, "and they do with that what they like."

A Jan. 18 posting from the team in Indonesia says the country's devastated Aceh Province is "ripe for Jesus!!"

"What an opportunity," it adds. "It has been closed for five years, and the missionaries in Indonesia consider it the most militant and difficult place for ministry. The door is wide open and the people are hungry."

The Rev. Jimmy Seibert, the senior pastor of the Waco church, said in a telephone interview that the church would evaluate whether the group's members should identify themselves as aid workers. But he said the church believes missionary work and aid work "is one thing, not two separate things."

"My hope is that as a follower of Jesus they would bring who they are into the workplace," he said, "whether they are in a workplace in America or a workplace in Sri Lanka."

Older Christian aid groups like Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran World Relief and others with religious affiliations say they do not proselytize, abiding by Red Cross guidelines that humanitarian aid not be used to further political or religious purposes. Ken Hackett, president of Catholic Relief Services, said that in the last 20 years there had been an increase of smaller Christian evangelical groups providing relief aid in the wake of disaster.

"I think there are new groups that are driven by missionary zeal," Mr. Hackett said. In the last several weeks, Mr. Hackett said, his group has received anecdotal reports of proselytizing in countries devastated by the tsunami.

"From our partners in India, Sri Lanka and Indonesia we've heard that there have been instances when American and other Christian groups have been proselytizing and casting aspersions on the faith of people there," he said. "Some of these groups raise questions about other faiths, saying that people would be better off if they converted to Christianity immediately."

Several American evangelical aid groups have arrived in Sri Lanka, but no reports of proselytizing by those groups have emerged, according to Sri Lankan church officials. The Rev. Franklin Graham, the son of the evangelist Billy Graham, visited Sri Lanka this week to encourage the workers of his evangelical aid organization, Samaritan's Purse, who plan to work in Sri Lanka for the next five years.

Other American evangelical aid groups, including Gospel for Asia and World Relief, are active on the country's devastated east coast, according to Sri Lankan and American aid workers.

Members of Mr. Graham's group said they did not engage in proselytizing, but said if local Christians wanted to build a church they would help them. Officials from World Relief, the aid wing of the National Association of Evangelicals, have said in interviews that they try to first build trust with local people and then look for opportunities for conversions, in some cases years later.

More evangelical groups are apparently on their way. A message posted on the Web site of the Moral Majority leader Jerry Falwell says the school he founded, Liberty University, is preparing to send a team to Sri Lanka, India and other countries battered by the tsunami.

"Distribution of food and medical supplies along with the dissemination of thousands of Gospel tracts in the language of the people will keep the L.U. team very busy," the Web site says. "Mission trips to the Asian region by many L.U. students will follow in the months, and perhaps years, to come."

Ron Godwin, president of Jerry Falwell Ministries, confirmed that the Liberty Foundation was organizing a shipment of rice, medication and Scriptural excerpts, but said the primary goal of the effort was relief, not proselytizing. "Everything we do is in the name of Christ," he said. "But we try to be sensitive in areas where it may be politically sensitive, and we have no litmus test for those we give rice to."

According to the Waco church group's Web site, its teams in Sri Lanka and Indonesia are performing "children's ministry," seeing "many people saved" and continuing to "minister to families and children through prayer and evangelism."

According to its Web site, the congregation uses small groups called "cell churches" to attract new members. The reports from Indonesia and Sri Lanka refer to "cells" and "lifegroups" in both countries.

Residents of the camp here reported no healings as a result of the group's prayers. But they said they appreciated the aid and activities for children that the group provided and did not want to see them end.

Organizers in a nearby camp have declared the Americans missionaries and barred them from entering. Camp organizers here said they believed that the group was trying to convert people, but did not want to further upset the tsunami victims by cutting off the aid.

W. L. P. Wilson, 38, a disabled fisherman with a sixth-grade education, said he allowed the Americans to pray three times for the healing of his paralyzed lower leg because he was desperate to provide for his wife and three children again. Mr. Wilson, a Buddhist, said that he believed that the Americans were trying to convert him to Christianity but that he was in "a helpless situation now" and needed aid.

"They told me to always think about God and about Jesus and you will be healed," he said. "Whenever I ask for help they always mention God, but they do not give any money for treatment."



Neela Banerjee contributed reporting from Washington for this article.

link --- subscription site (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/22/international/worldspecial4/22preach.html?oref=login&oref=login)


Should Christians use the tsunamis as an oppurtunity to expand their ranks?

Ginny
01-24-2005, 09:54 PM
I know that Christians are called to share their religion with others, but I just don't think the aftermath of a tragedy like this is the appropriate time.

I saw the leader of a Christian group helping tsunami victims on a news show. He talked about sharing Jesus with these people, not through proseletyzing, but by the example of compassion and good works. I was impressed. I thought it showed the committment of his group to live their faith. If he'd expressed a desire to see how many people he could convert, it would have made me doubt the sincerity of his committment to helping these people.

The expectation of conversion makes it seem *to me* that a group's good works are conditional.

mom2burgess
01-24-2005, 10:39 PM
I agree with Ginny. It just seems sad to me to attempt to convert people at a time such as this, and to call them "ripe for jesus" is just sickening to me. These people have been through SO much already and to attempt to use this as an advantage? Sickening. The person that Ginny speaks of, is a wonderful person. He doesn't have to preach his faith to prove his faith.

Opus
01-24-2005, 10:55 PM
Yes, I understand your phobias concerning religion Def, but helping people that face disaster and at the same time being able to talk to them and bring them a message they are free to accept or deny, is acceptable in my opinion.

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:06 PM
Yes, I understand your phobias concerning religion Def,
First of all, I don't have any phobias concerning religion so stop playing shrink. You are lousy at it. I happen to be a VERY religious person.

ETA: Can you ever respond to something I post without making it personal?

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:18 PM
I didnt make it personal, I am sorry you take it that way

when every religous post you make is negative, you cant see how some would take it that your not tolerant of religion?

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:20 PM
def, whats the problem with a group talking to survivors they are helping about their individual beliefs?

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:27 PM
when every religous post you make is negative, you cant see how some would take it that your not tolerant of religion?you are making this personal by bringing up how many posts you believe I make that are negative about religion. I have a negative view of right wing religion but not religion as a whole, otherwise I'd be an atheist. I am not an atheist and I have made that clear all too often in this forum if you paid attention to anything I write.

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:29 PM
def, whats the problem with a group talking to survivors they are helping about their individual beliefs?You cross land and sea to win a single convert and you make the new believer twice a child of hell as yourself.

Jesus said that.

Tragedy is not the time to proseltyze.

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:31 PM
I am sorry your taking it personal but can you list any positive posts you have made concerning religion?

what religions and religous practices do you approve of?

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:42 PM
You cross land and sea to win a single convert and you make the new believer twice a child of hell as yourself.

Jesus said that.
please quote the reference where you got it and which context your taking it from?

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:45 PM
I am sorry your taking it personal but can you list any positive posts you have made concerning religion? Again, you are making this personal. The debate question isn't about how many posts that I make on any given subject. If you followed anything other than the most inflamatory threads you'd know which posts that I have defended theistic belief in. In fact, I made such a post just last week.

what religions and religous practices do you approve of?

The topic of this thread isn't about what religious practices I approve of. The topic of this thread is "should Christians use the tsunamis as an oppurtunity to expand their ranks?" It is not about me.

As to your question, which I should not honor you by answering, I think all religions are valid. I have no problems with any of them. I do have problems with some sects of some religions. Yestarday, if I recall, it was you who was attacking a religion. You should watch yourself.

As for how I think religious practices are best carried out? I think Matthew 6:6 best describes it:

But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:47 PM
please quote the reference where you got it and which context your taking it from?Matthew 23:15

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:52 PM
Jesus was specifically directing his speech to the Pharisees and dsicussing the leadership of the Jewish Religous order of the day and in no way comparable to people spreading the word of Christ abroad.

IMO, you may take it otherwise but I respectively disagree with your interpretation of the scripture in question

Def.I.Nition
01-24-2005, 11:56 PM
Jesus was specifically directing his speech to the Pharisees and dsicussing the leadership of the Jewish Religous order of the day and in no way comparable to people spreading the word of Christ abroad.The passage is applicable to today's times as well. Christ apparently had a problem with proseltytes.

Opus
01-24-2005, 11:58 PM
you can interpret it that way if you wish but thats a very large stretch and not at all what it says in that passage

if you read the beginning of the passage he is directly discussing the jewish religous leaders, the pharisees

Ginny
01-25-2005, 12:00 AM
Opus, let's keep this on track. You made it personal with your very first post in this thread. Debate the topic, not the poster.

Opus
01-25-2005, 12:02 AM
I am Ginny

and my question at the beginning was less personal as it was an observation but now if you notice it is on track

Def.I.Nition
01-25-2005, 12:05 AM
you can interpret it that way if you wish but thats a very large stretch and not at all what it says in that passage

if you read the beginning of the passage he is directly discussing the jewish religous leaders, the phariseesYeh, they were the religious right wing proseltyzers of his day. Of course he wasn't going to adress the Church of Antioch because it didn't exist. You can't discount that passages applicability to situations beyond the historical time frame otherwise the vast majority of Jesus' sayings can be ignored because most of them are not adressed to people of our times. You have to be able to extrapolate and apply it to our times.

Opus
01-25-2005, 12:08 AM
If you wish to apply it to our times you would have to use it in refertence to a specific Church Leadership that was not practicing what they preach, as Jesus was stressing in that passage

and unless your speaking of some extremist religions, it is not applicable to the Tsunami religous relief efforts

Def.I.Nition
01-25-2005, 12:13 AM
If you wish to apply it to our times you would have to use it in refertence to a specific Church Leadership that was not practicing what they preach, as Jesus was stressing in that passage

and unless your speaking of some extremist religions, it is not applicable to the Tsunami religous relief effortsGinny gave an example of a religious leader who is not a hippocrite. These proseltyzers are the worst kind of hippocrites. They are no different from the Pharisees of Jesus' times.

Opus
01-25-2005, 12:18 AM
and your article listed one group it accused of it, although it only says they were discussing their faith to the people and thus was arrested for it

one group doesnt an entire group condemn does it?

Def.I.Nition
01-25-2005, 12:40 AM
one group doesnt an entire group condemn does it?WTF? If the whole group is doing it then yes, the entire group should be condemned for doing it.

Opus
01-25-2005, 07:10 AM
but they are not, by your own article you listed , it only gave an example of 1 church POSSIBLY doing it, because the article didnt even provide enough evidence that the 1 church was actually doing it, they were only accused of it and everyone knows your innocent till proven guiltry, right?

bRATmom
01-25-2005, 09:32 AM
You can't discount that passages applicability to situations beyond the historical time frame otherwise the vast majority of Jesus' sayings can be ignored because most of them are not adressed to people of our times. You have to be able to extrapolate and apply it to our times.


such a profound statement, it should be read again......

I think its down right appalling that people would go in and attempt to convert these poor people in thier most desperate hour of need.... thats sick. Get them the help they need, no strings attached, do it for yourself... The greater joy is in giving...

Book Wizard
01-25-2005, 01:53 PM
I agree with you bRAT. They are there to rescue and help, not to convert.

MMP
01-25-2005, 02:20 PM
To answer the OQ(LOL), I dont think the disaster should be used to convert, but I think it would be okay to say that Christiananity stresses generousity and loving thy neighbor.

Opus
01-25-2005, 03:43 PM
You can't discount that passages applicability to situations beyond the historical time frame otherwise the vast majority of Jesus' sayings can be ignored because most of them are not adressed to people of our times. You have to be able to extrapolate and apply it to our times
you also can't discount the fact that some people will apply the passage in the wrong way entirely and come up with a totally innapropriate message

False prophets will always try this approach (and false propehts can be ministers as well as anti-christians using passages incorrectly)

Def.I.Nition
01-25-2005, 04:05 PM
but they are not, by your own article you listed , it only gave an example of 1 church POSSIBLY doing it, because the article didnt even provide enough evidence that the 1 church was actually doing it, they were only accused of it and everyone knows your innocent till proven guiltry, right?That one church is the group being condemned.

Opus
01-25-2005, 04:10 PM
And so far, I have seen no evidence they were even doing it

all the article says is that they were talking, and even then offers no evidence of what was being said

kingclick
01-25-2005, 05:01 PM
Yes. Disasters are a perfect time to increase the ranks. But it should be done out of EXAMPLE and not forced.

Be the hands of Jesus. When he healed he said "Go and sin no more." He didn't say..."Now you gotta follow me and here are the new rules in your life."

Def.I.Nition
01-25-2005, 05:19 PM
Yes. Disasters are a perfect time to increase the ranks.
I disagree but...

But it should be done out of EXAMPLE and not forced.

Be the hands of Jesus. When he healed he said "Go and sin no more." He didn't say..."Now you gotta follow me and here are the new rules in your life."I completely agree. Now everybody can go play with their snowballs in Hell.

hodedofome
02-23-2005, 04:11 PM
Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. - Matthew 5:23-24

If you have a problem with something that Antioch is allegedly doing, why don't you ask them about it first before posting accusations on the internet?

www.antiochcc.net
http://www.antiochcc.net/tsunami_faq.htm

Michele
02-23-2005, 04:39 PM
Hodedofme, welcome to The Conversation Cafe. You have posted in a debate section of our board. People offer opinions (right or wrong) that are open for discussion. We try to keep it as respectful as possible.

I hope you'll stick around and let us get to know you (and your opinion) better. :)

Lynaka
02-23-2005, 04:55 PM
From the original quoted piece given by Def:

Older Christian aid groups like Catholic Relief Services, Lutheran World Relief and others with religious affiliations say they do not proselytize, abiding by Red Cross guidelines that humanitarian aid not be used to further political or religious purposes.

Considering there are guidelines set out by Red Cross, ANY religious group which fails to follow them should be subject to some kind of corrective action. A time of disaster is not an appropriate venue for proselytizing no matter what religion you are advocating. To go into an area blindly preaching is disrespectful to the culture and religions of the area. Only 7% follow the Christian faith...get a clue-by-four!

And Opus.... :crazy2: While I don't post here that frequently, even I'm aware that Def holds a religious belief. Your debating style doesn't leave much to offer when you simply continue to make personal statements and attacks without offering valid discussion or comments that serve to further the debate.

Def, hon, perhaps it would be best to avoid rising to the bait all the time. I can't speak for others, but I know what valid discussion points you are trying to make. Don't let the hot-air get to you. ;)

kingclick
02-23-2005, 05:00 PM
Opus has been banned.

hodedofome
02-24-2005, 05:55 PM
It's ok to have an opinion as long as the facts are correct. The facts and implications in that article in the NY Times are not all correct. If you have a problem with something Antioch is doing why doesn't somebody ask them first.

Diva
02-28-2005, 03:31 AM
It's ok to have an opinion as long as the facts are correct. The facts and implications in that article in the NY Times are not all correct. If you have a problem with something Antioch is doing why doesn't somebody ask them first.

I don't think it's really relevant whether or not the Antioch church is doing what the article says it is; this debate is not about the Antioch church, it is about the CONCEPT of poselytising under the guise of offering aid in disaster-stricken areas. No one here is going out to take any action against the Antioch church, in fact, apart from in the original article which was there as inspiration for a debate question only, I don't believe the specific church has been discussed at all, it has been all about the concept. Everyone with half a brain knows not to believe everything he reads, but that doesn't mean articles, whether true or not, cannot make for interesting conversation.

Now, as to the OT, I believe that the best way to "win souls" is (as someone suggested earlier) by example, not by preaching. It would be completely unethical to use the guise of aid to attempt to convert people who are going through such terrible times to a religion not their own by anything other than quietly doing "god's work", ie by example, not preaching.