FOR OPUS - offshoot from "hysterical" thread

[rara avisnongrata]

I said that I did not wish to take that thread any further off topic, but I do need to respond to your last comments, lol...

Originally posted by Opus (RIB):

"when you call conservatives facists, that offends me, because I am conservative/moderate on many views

LOL, read back, please! I did NOT call conservatives faScists - I referred to neoconservatives. In fact, I clearly made the distinction between cons and neocons to prevent just such a misunderstanding. If you are truly "conservative/moderate", then my comments are not applicable to your political ideology. Sorry if you were offended, but that has more to do with your own failure to read what I wrote before having a knee-jerk reaction, than it has to do with what I actually wrote.

and for the record, Facists were a political party in the 30's/40's and there are no more facists, especially not in the USA

Oh, how I wish you were right! You are not. Bush and his cronies do INDEED display many of the defining characteristics of fascist ideology.

From dictionary.com (though I am not big on doing this, I think it may be needed):

Fascism

a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

b) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

Sounds familiar to me :shakehead ...and I'm not going back to the 30/40s on that...just the current administration. The definition of "fascism" goes far beyond the Fascist Party of the past, dear Opus.

In addition, THERE ARE INDEED organized groups - albeit on the fringe of the right - in this country (and all English speaking countries, to my knowledge) which refer to THEMSELVES as fascists, and revel in ethnocentric nationalism. I can post some links on this at a later time if you do not believe me. It would behoove you to aquaint yourself with the full spectrum of active political groups before commenting on their existence, lol.


and what i said was your views were lefist, not you, but I apologize if I phrased it incorrectly)"

:yeah: No backpeddling now, darlin'! No, you called me a "ultra left-wing liberal". In your mind, I would guess that is an insult. Regardless of the fact that I take it as an unintended compliment, you wrote what you wrote. Now, own it. To acknowledge fully and then apologize is one thing - I know I have to do that fairly frequently, as I am a quick-tempered beastie. But at least honestly acknowledge your own words. Sheesh!

As I said several times previously, as soon as time permits me to truly participate, I will start a new thread on the schism between traditional conservatives and neoconservatives. Perhaps you will find that thread enlightening as to the fascistic roots of neocon ideology, if you are presently unaware of the parallels.

[Def.I.Nition]

From dictionary.com (though I am not big on doing this, I think it may be needed):[/B]

Fascism

a) A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

b) A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.

[/B]



I think the dictionary definition doesn't fully explain it either. Mussolini, the father of fascism said, "fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power."

One only need to look at the extreme favoritism Bush's adminstration has shown corporate America at the expense of labor and consumers and one can clearly see how the two powers are merging. Agencies meant to regulate corporate power is now in the hands of corporate elites. Those who were at the highest level of power in corporate America now are in the highest level of power in government. If what is going on under the Bush administration not a merger of corporate and government power, I don't know what is.

[Opus]

Just because a facist defines something as something else you believe it? interesting

sorry, Fasicsm was a political party and hitler and mussolini were members of that party

and the party doesnt exist anymore so it is not a term to be used in debate unless your trying to insult someone

and yes, rara, you described any conservative idea that you deem not normal, as facist which is insulting to anyone conservative

and you have yet to list any views you consider Normal conservative ideals

I could just as easily label everything the democrats have done this year in the area of hatemongering and namecalling as neo-leftist or neo-liberalism and be more accurate than anything on the conservative side

[Opus]

and just because liberals have lost control of government for the first time in 40 years (when they virtually bankrupted the country with their deficits)

is no reason to suggest we are in a dictator regime, which is an ignorant term if used because we are still a representative republic

even if the liberals views are becoming more and more a minority opinion in the us

[Def.I.Nition]

Just because a facist defines something as something else you believe it? interesting Not defining fascism by what Mussolini said it was would be like not definining Communism based on what Marx said it was.

and the party doesnt exist anymore so it is not a term to be used in debate unless your trying to insult someone

What's in a name? That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.



I could just as easily label everything the democrats have done this year in the area of hatemongering and namecalling as neo-leftist or neo-liberalism and be more accurate than anything on the conservative side

Do you even know what neoliberalism is? I'll give you a hint: political liberals don't even like it and political conservatives do like it.


See if you can figure it out.




Maybe you can understand the encyclopediac explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism).

[Opus]

since I used the term like liberals use the term neo-conservatives, it means something different than the explanation on that web site

And there are more liberal facists, (if you use the definition liberals use it for) than there are conservative facists

Mussolini, hitler, castro, marx, mao

under the defiinition liberals use it, all those would fall under it and they are all leftists (liberals)

[Def.I.Nition]

since I used the term like liberals use the term neo-conservatives, it means something different than the explanation on that web site You don't get to make-up your own definition of terms.

And there are more liberal facists, (if you use the definition liberals use it for) than there are conservative facists

Mussolini, hitler, castro, marx, mao

under the defiinition liberals use it, all those would fall under it and they are all leftists (liberals)

You are wrong. Hitler and Mussolini are rightists not a leftist. Fascism is from the right not the left. Fascism and Communism are polar opposites with Communism being the extreme of left of center views and fascism being the extreme of right of center views. Communists abhor fascists and vice-versa.

Communism is the removal of corporate power from the government and Fascism is the merging of corporate power with the government. You need to learn more about political ideologies before you start throwing your terminology around.

[rara avisnongrata]

First, Opus, "fascism" refers to a political philosophy/ideology, NOT one particular party OF fascists. I know you do not grasp the difference. If I get in trouble for this, fine, but:

Fact is you do not grasp many concepts which are central to any debate of modern politics. Therefore, it is quite pointless to "debate" with you as it is not a level playing field for you, and not much of a debate. The meat of an issue is never reached, as all time is spent arguing over very very basic concepts. NOT debateable concepts. Simple things like:

FASCISM IS AN EXTREME IDEOLOGY OF THE RIGHT, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE EXTREME IDEOLOGY OF THE LEFT, WHICH WOULD BE COMMUNISM.

Things like this are not debateable, per se. They are basic concepts, shared by people on both sides of the politcal spectrum.

With all due respect, it is apparent that you are simply not equipped with a comprehensive understanding of these things, nor the humility to learn. So I will not bang my head into bricks any longer after this post. I'm not that much of a masochist, lol...


Just because a facist defines something as something else you believe it? interesting

sorry, Fasicsm was a political party and hitler and mussolini were members of that party

Sorry, no. Once again, your ignorance of history and basic political vocabulary is sorely lacking. I think Def touched on a lot of it, already, and frankly, I do not feel like wasting much more time on this futility.

and the party doesnt exist anymore so it is not a term to be used in debate unless your trying to insult someone

As I said there are still active fascists in most Western (read: white) nations. You can deny reality all you want, but it will not make your presumptions any less false.

and yes, rara, you described any conservative idea that you deem not normal, as facist which is insulting to anyone conservative

Why do you have such difficulty reading WHAT I WROTE??? I said that I was speaking to the ideology of NEOcons, NOT average American conservatives. I said it again and again.

I would think you would understand conservative values, since you claim to hold them, but *sigh* I will spoon feed you, poor baby...

1. favor small government (the NEOs sure don't!)
2. favor responsible fiscal policy (the NEOs sure don't!)
3. favor slow, *conservative* change to existing policy (the NEOs sure don't!)
4. favor a semi-isolationist foriegn policy (the NEOs sure don't - "forced" democratization?! Not very conservative!)

Just a sampling/short list. The NEOs in office have violated all of those.


and you have yet to list any views you consider Normal conservative ideals

See above. Just a small sample.

I could just as easily label everything the democrats have done this year in the area of hatemongering and namecalling as neo-leftist or neo-liberalism and be more accurate than anything on the conservative side

You make little to no sense, here. Once again, you betray your political ignorance, lol! Google NEOLIBERALISM - really! It is not hard at all! Def, once again (thank you!) has already touched on this, but neolib. is not popular amongst "average" American liberals. They are completely different schools of thought. Jumping Jesus!


A word of advice: I would seriously suggest that you EDUCATE yourself a bit more on politics, so as to appear at least a little savvy to the matters you are so passionate about. I am no expert on politics by any means, but this is not rocket science. All you have to do is READ a good, unbiased college textbook on the evolution of modern political movements. Hell, you can get a lot of this basic knowledge through the internet, though I do not necessarily recommend that method as best. Just DO NOT rely on the pundits, man, okay?! Unless you wish to debate fiction, lol...

I am NOT talking liberal/conservative here. There are plenty of well-read, intellectually sound conservatives with whom I truly enjoy a good debate. This is not about agreeing. It is about having a most basic understanding of the situation you wish to weigh in on.

__________________________________

I offer myself up for punishment if Admin deems that necessary. I have never addressed someone like this, aside from jest, on the IN before. for whatever it's worth I tried to be....um....constructively critical??

[Opus]

First, Opus, "fascism" refers to a political philosophy/ideology, NOT one particular party OF fascists. I know you do not grasp the difference. If I get in trouble for this, fine, but:

(the failure to grasp something is yours since no political party now even compares the ideals of facism)

FASCISM IS AN EXTREME IDEOLOGY OF THE RIGHT, NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE EXTREME IDEOLOGY OF THE LEFT, WHICH WOULD BE COMMUNISM.
First of all you are the ignorant one if you think one has to accept your use of the offensive word "Facist" in a politrical debate when all it is, is a hateful term meant to insult and degrade

it certainly isnt any useful term in description of ANY party or person now existing so take your ignorant insults and either debate the isuue without calling names or dont enter the debate at all

and I guess I am now being constructively critical in calling your usage for what it is, ignorant and insulting...

and you are taking a liberal stand when you call conservatives fascists so dont expect others to believe your buetral when you insult one side and leave the other side alone
===============================
the definition of facism is:
The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that


exalts nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) and sometimes race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) above the individual,
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda) and censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship) to forcibly suppress political opposition,
engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
espouses nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) and sometimes racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) (ethnic nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism)
===================================

and the only party that comes close to that is democrats which use the race card, and violence and propaganda every chance they get

so if your going to use the term, use it correctly in pointing out the party of Michael Moore
======================================

[Opus]

if you are justified in using facism because you think the republican party is edging toward that , than we are jusitified in calling the democrats communist and socialist since they have long taken up that banner

right?

just trying to get your terminology right

[rara avisnongrata]

First of all you are the ignorant one if you think one has to accept your use of the offensive word "Facist" in a politrical debate when all it is, is a hateful term meant to insult and degrade

No, it is a political ideology.

it certainly isnt any useful term in description of ANY party or person now existing so take your ignorant insults and either debate the isuue without calling names or dont enter the debate at all

Yes, it IS an apt description of the world view which the current administration seeks to manifest. Please see Def's informative bit about the corporate aspect of fascism. Their policies are, indeed, fascistic. In addition, as I said, there are present day political organizations which define THEMSELVES as fascist.

And it is absolutely hilarious for you to jump all over another poster for name-calling. Really. It's priceless.

I would like to point out, YET AGAIN, Opus, that I never once referred to you or any other poster here as a fascist. I referred to NEOconservatives. You claim to be just plain old conservative/moderate, so you should not be so indignant about it.

And I will debate whenever I feel I have something to contribute. When I am well informed enough on a topic to have at least a high school level understanding of it, anyhow.....LOLOLOLOL.

and I guess I am now being constructively critical in calling your usage for what it is, ignorant and insulting...

Tsk, tsk!!

I would watch calling others "ignorant", Opus....especially a topic on which you have revealed yourself to be woefully uninformed. Ignorance is defined by a lack of knowledge, no? When you do not have a grasp of high school level political terminology....I don't know....I would find another topic to get indignant about. Like I don't know shit about sports, so I would not be so arrogant as to jump into a debate about sports with no humility. Do you follow me? You have no humility whilst debating a topic it is OBVIOUS you do not know much about, at least from an academic standpoint.

and you are taking a liberal stand when you call conservatives fascists so dont expect others to believe your buetral when you insult one side and leave the other side alone

Ummmm....what's buetral??? No, just kidding ;) . I never claimed to be neutral. That is a word I have used to describe the position gov't is supposed to take in re: sep. of C&S. You are confusing debates.
===============================
the definition of facism is:
The word fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that


exalts nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) and sometimes race (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race) above the individual,
uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda) and censorship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship) to forcibly suppress political opposition,
engages in severe economic and social regimentation, and
espouses nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalism) and sometimes racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism) (ethnic nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism)

Again, there are strong elements of this embodied in our current admin.
===================================

and the only party that comes close to that is democrats which use the race card, and violence and propaganda every chance they get

WTF are you talking about?? Show me examples, doll.

so if your going to use the term, use it correctly in pointing out the party of Michael Moore

Oh now you're being just plain silly, laughable, et cetera! Please, again - try to digest that fascism is far RIGHT politically. If you would like to call democrats socialists/communists (LEFT), be my guest, but AT LEAST get the ends of the spectrum right!
======================================

Must go home for the evening. Tata til tomorrow, lovey!

[rara avisnongrata]

if you are justified in using facism because you think the republican party is edging toward that , than we are jusitified in calling the democrats communist and socialist since they have long taken up that banner

right?

just trying to get your terminology right

Fine by me, Opus. Then again, I align most closely with democratic socialism, so to me, this is not a bad thing, lol.

I must tell you, though, that the democratic party today is more conservative than it was for much of the latter half of the 1900's. Personally, I find most dems to be far, far too conservative. Kerry included. So, :P !

Really have to go now. Bye.

[Opus]

Must go home for the evening. Tata til tomorrow, lovey!allright, lets see if I can get all the examples down of democrats using the tactics of facism

Dems support the use of propaganda, (michael moore movie)

Jesse Jackson extorts money from every business he comes in contact with and he is highly supported and encouraged by the left

Charles Rangle strikes fear in the heart of students and parents by saying that Bush wants to start the Draft again, when in fact, Charles Rangle sponsored the legislation along with another democrat and surprisingly enough, only those two dems voted for it

Kerry tries to strike fear with his lies about social security failing and that stating that republicans want to take their checks away, which is a blad faced lie

Dems have stated before that Republicans want to starve childrena dn old folks when neither is provable, just to get fear to change their votes

The NAALCP states that republicans if voted in will reenact jim crow laws, tryiing to get ignorant blacks who might believe that to vote for Kerry

and the dems bus out protestors to every national event and pay people to attend and cause trouble, yes, even violence when they riot at these events

well have a nice evening rara, i hope you have a nice one

[Def.I.Nition]

Opus, Educate yourself


Learn about Fascism (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/mussolini-fascism.html)


Modern History Sourcebook:
Benito Mussolini:
What is Fascism, 1932



Benito Mussolini (1883-1945) over the course of his lifetime went from Socialism - he was editor of Avanti, a socialist newspaper - to the leadership of a new political movement called "fascism" [after "fasces", the symbol of bound sticks used a totem of power in ancient Rome].

[i]Mussolini came to power after the "March on Rome" in 1922, and was appointed Prime Minister by King Victor Emmanuel.

In 1932 Mussolini wrote (with the help of Giovanni Gentile) and entry for the Italian Encyclopedia on the definition of fascism.


Fascism, the more it considers and observes the future and the development of humanity quite apart from political considerations of the moment, believes neither in the possibility nor the utility of perpetual peace. It thus repudiates the doctrine of Pacifism -- born of a renunciation of the struggle and an act of cowardice in the face of sacrifice. War alone brings up to its highest tension all human energy and puts the stamp of nobility upon the peoples who have courage to meet it. All other trials are substitutes, which never really put men into the position where they have to make the great decision -- the alternative of life or death....

...The Fascist accepts life and loves it, knowing nothing of and despising suicide: he rather conceives of life as duty and struggle and conquest, but above all for others -- those who are at hand and those who are far distant, contemporaries, and those who will come after...

...Fascism [is] the complete opposite of…Marxian Socialism, the materialist conception of history of human civilization can be explained simply through the conflict of interests among the various social groups and by the change and development in the means and instruments of production.... Fascism, now and always, believes in holiness and in heroism; that is to say, in actions influenced by no economic motive, direct or indirect. And if the economic conception of history be denied, according to which theory men are no more than puppets, carried to and fro by the waves of chance, while the real directing forces are quite out of their control, it follows that the existence of an unchangeable and unchanging class-war is also denied - the natural progeny of the economic conception of history. And above all Fascism denies that class-war can be the preponderant force in the transformation of society....

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Please note that Mussolini himself calls socialism the opposite of fascism. If socialism is leftist then fascism is the extreme right of that.

[Peanut]

Wow, definition. Thanks for an intelligent post regarding the topic at hand! :trophy: (No, I am not joking...before anyone overreacts.)